A Religious Rant

[The Sentinel]

Nadia, Pain Dancer, beautifully said.

[RKCoon]

Nadia - Dont confuse hatred for strong, solid, directed arguments designed to dissect points. While I dont deny that religion pisses me off to no end, blind anger is little more useful than blind faith, and none so in a conversation.  However, I do have something of an empathy for humanity as a whole - it has a hard enough time trying to grow out of its rut, and it keeps shooting itself over and over and over with things like religion and holy wars and mass slaughter and such.  I especially feel religion's ill intent rather keenly, being part of the LGBT community I keep close tabs on what goes on, and the single biggest obstacle, opponent and outright threat to the rights of not just the LGBT community, but anyone and everyone that would differ form the 'norm' has proven to be, without any fail whatsoever, the religious right.  Also, I might point out your very common christian response to my attitude and behavior to religion as a whole and xtianity in particular -- "Oh, he is sure harsh on religion, he must of been abused by religious people". Something Ive run across myself many times, and invariably, those that say it, cannot comprehend the idea that its the faith itself that presents the core problem, and that some of us are willing to stand up against it.

PD - did I not specify "civilized cultures"? I was not including the tribes that have yet to advance themselves the way the rest of the planet has.  Further, the 'ancient gods of greece' are no more, so they are relevant only as a history lesson - learn from their mistakes and improve ourselves based upon them.

You also keep harking back to "the divine plan" and how we cant seem to understand it, or dont deserve to. We may not understand what other races, other beings, may be planning or wanting or such, but since none have made their presence felt since the time of mythology, Who Cares? We have the right, as living beings, to determine our own path, which includes being free from any deity that might just smite us cause we didnt kiss his ass on some sabbath (which could be saturday or sunday depending who you ask).

Further, in regards to genetic weakness and such - That's just part of life, something to overcome and learn from. Death may stalk humanity constantly, but we have a bad habit of making it work harder every year.  And while yes we are burdening the planet more and more, we are also learning to adapt too - eventually, I think, humanity will overcome its childish traits and mature to take its place in the stars, as it were.  I might point out the way you word it would suggest not helping, not working to improve, and leave ourselves to 'the tending of god' - some cultures still do that, living with the wild as you mentioned, and I would have to say, their quality of life isnt exactly all that great.  As you yourself said, they still do things like rape and incest and such, on top of the whole lack of advancement.  So yea, if you actually hold up the two together and compare them - that is, the notion of living for god and with nature, versus humanity actually DOING it - doesnt look so good from where I sit.

To me, faith in religion is a joke, and faith being applied in science is a misnomer - the word means, literally, to believe in that which has no proof. Therefore, I cant say i have "faith" humanity will improve - for there IS solid, concrete evidence that humanity HAS bettered itself, if painfully, and is and will continue to do so, and i BELIEVE it will do so.

[Nadia115]

It is the pissing you off I was speaking about. I was also speaking as someone who spent most of her younger years being abused in many different ways by christians and as someone who has a friend that was put in the hospital and the girl she was walking home from school with being killed by christians who did the beatings in the name of christianity and god because they were wiccans. For years my friend and I despised the religion, but we came to understand that it is the perversion of man and bad seeds that cause the problems. We also understand, as I have stated before, the bible was written by fallible man. No god wrote the bible. So it is the biases and beliefs of man from that time that made it into the bible. It still does not mean that I am going to condemn the religion as a whole as evil. There are many christians who also understand these things and would rather hold on to the more peaceful parts. So no, no christian beliefs underlying here. Just an understanding that man himself is at fault for perverions,biases and such in the name of religion and to enforce how they feel and think that causes the problems. This goes for any religion.

[paindancer]

What I was pointing out, was that you have a local social based definition of good and evil.. one I generally prescribe to myself.  A universal good or evil would be constant and without exception.. which you did not provide.  (trust me, I have been searching for years)

However, shaking your fist and demanding everything in the universe adhere to your myoptic point of view is foolish.  What works for us socially may not work for a universal good.  Hell, the human race may be a toxic fuck up, banished to the edge of an insignificant galaxy and it would serve the greater good to eradicates us all.

I see you demanding to assert you understand.. to convince everyone and yourself you are right.

Guess what.. you probably dont understand much.  Neither do I.  There is no shame or weakness in that.. there is nothing scary about it.

Think about it.. if there is a Divine.. and it knows all past/present.. it makes it at least non-time linear.. if not time transcendent.  Can you conceive the perspective of a being that can move in time as easily as you can move right or left?  Perhaps you can... and if so.. now consider freedom in the remaining 10 dimensions that make up our universe.  (that may be a bit hard as our minds cant even process time accurately)

So.. yes.. assuming you can understand the Divine is a bit presumptuous at best.  What we can understand is the here and now.. what choices we make and the effects of choices around us. 

The Abrihamic religions are  that of duality.  Right/wrong us/them anger/love good/evil.  I see you condemning the effects of those tools, yet I see you use them yourself every day.  Do you somehow think you will get a different result by doing the same thing people have before you?

I personally, suggest that you may find more peace and wisdom by looking east. 

 

[The Sentinel]

Pain Dancer:

Actually, physics is starting to consider whether or not the fourth dimension (time) is linear or not. There's the "multiverse" theory that each choice we make has infinite branches and so on which is a very interesting theory, there is of course the theory that time is cyclical and so on. Physics hasn't decided whether or not time is linear or not so it well could be that it isn't at all. With that in mind it is wholly possible that there are creatures like that. And I would agree that a creature like that would easily be God to us, even if it is only a speck of dust to someone else.

[Soulshroude]

~RKCoon~ you seem to have missed my point with your reply toward me:

Soulshroude - The question should not be "weather there is a god or not", but rather, " what do people DO in regards to their faith in a deity?"  As I have stated before, its this blind faith that is dangerous, and a severe detriment to society as a whole, and the fact that no god or deity or collection of such is prettymuch irreverent, past the point that people are wasting their time, energy and actions in the name of such.  Again, however, people do have the right to do so -- up until the point they try to force their beliefs on others.

My answer toward you (page 1) was ment as an analogy that what if man was "chosen" to become God and finally understood the power of the Universe and why thing NEED to happen the way they do.  I do understand if you missed to point, not many actually catch it.  The Universe (God) is and always has been indifferant.  It is simply following its protocol with out emotion, bias, racism or any other sentiments to guides its course in what it HAS to do as apposed to what it WANTS to do.  My answer was never a quest about "whether there is a God or not", but rather why people just don't understand what it is like to be God, and what they might understand if they were given a chance to be like God.

You seem to be more or less angery in your immediate life regarding the religious zealots, so my words might fall on your deaf ears as I translate them to be so in my perspective, so I will leave you to your rantings regarding that area of discussion as it means little to nothing in my life.  I don't let the world bother me anymore, all the small stuff is just that.. small stuff, reflect on that.

Note to Zaar:  Most interesting, my friend.  I am glad to have found a place in life.

[paindancer]

Pain Dancer:

Actually, physics is starting to consider whether or not the fourth dimension (time) is linear or not. There's the "multiverse" theory that each choice we make has infinite branches and so on which is a very interesting theory, there is of course the theory that time is cyclical and so on. Physics hasn't decided whether or not time is linear or not so it well could be that it isn't at all. With that in mind it is wholly possible that there are creatures like that. And I would agree that a creature like that would easily be God to us, even if it is only a speck of dust to someone else.

Indeed.  Einstein actually postulated that time was relative and mutable.  Its our minds which try to make it linear.

[The Sentinel]

That's some of the research to which I was referring, actually. Though it's been a long time since I did any serious study into physics.

[Taris]

A friend of mine actually sent me something in regards to that Sentinel. It was rather interesting.

As for this whole conversation. I wonder why we all get sucked into the drama that is a discussion based upon religion. Even people within their set and organized religion will have differing views. Not every Muslim will blow off a christians head because they are of a different culture. Nor did every christian participate in the crusades or the times of witch hunts. Its a sad fact of humanity that people destroy that which they dont understand or know out of fear. Be it physical or "flaming".

Again, everyone will perceive everything in their own light with their own biases. Everyone will go to the extremes at times, some more destructively than others.

The concept of good and evil, right and wrong, and generally accepted and unaccepted? It is all perception based on the society and culture you live in. The mindset of the mass of individuals creating single definitions of something like Evil. *Everytime I say Evil I think of mermaid man from sponge bob lol*. How we perceive them doesnt make it realistically so. The cultural differences as pain dancer stated are just that. Perceptions of that society and that culture leading to the defining of the terms. In nature there is no right and wrong, good and evil, accepted or unaccepted there simply is life and living. Hunting to survive and killing those who threaten them and their families in natural. In society it is called vigilante justice. An animal forcing reproduction or killing their mate, the spawn from said animal eating its parent initially, and many other F***ed up scenarios are all natural. Part of an animals nature.

Anyway im rambling again I assume but simply put we as people, as humans, as "believers" give life to these animosities. Not the religions themselves be they accurate or not. Be the "gods" dead or not. It is simply an aspect of humanity and sadly enough so. Move on and live your life? Not being combative or anything just saying the drama and stress rising from a topic. The aggrevation of people in response to it? Is it really worth it to continue feeding into it or continue on it?

Once again just a few thoughts. Oh and sentinel maybe you could post on that theory being worked out? If you have any in depth reference material and of course it hasnt been posted on already.(Having difficulty finding any decent posts as the recent posts section is filled with this and another rant of RK's.)

Dark blessings all.

[RKCoon]

More of the same, but...

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/i50413.html

BOGOTA - A Boeing 737 jetliner filled with vacationers crashed in a thunderstorm and broke apart as it slid onto the runway on a Caribbean island Monday. Only one of the 131 people on board died, and the island's governor called it a miracle.

The plane hit short of the runway on Colombia's San Andres Island and skidded on its belly as the fuselage fractured and bits of landing gear and at least one engine were ripped off. The jet wound up on one end of the runway, crumpled and in pieces, as passengers scrambled or were helped to safety.

Officials were investigating reports the Aires airline jet was hit by lightning before the crash on the resort island, Colombian air force Col. David Barrero said. He said other possible causes were being investigated as well.

Of the 125 passengers and six crew members aboard Aires Flight 8520, the only one killed was a 68-year-old woman, Amar Fernandez de Barreto, San Andres Gov. Pedro Gallardo said.

"It was a miracle and we have to give thanks to God," Gallardo said.

Officials said 119 people were treated or checked at clinics and five of them were seriously injured. The airline said at least five U.S. citizens were on the plane, and the U.S. Embassy in Colombia confirmed at least four Americans suffered injuries and were receiving care.

Airline representative Erika Zarante said four Brazilians, two Germans, two Costa Ricans and two French citizens also were on the plane.

The accident occurred so suddenly that the pilot did not report an emergency to the control tower, said Col. Donald Tascon, deputy director of the civil aeronautics agency. He said the plane's low altitude as it prepared to land — perhaps 100 feet (30 metres) just before the crash — may have averted worse damage.

Passenger Ricardo Ramirez, a vacationing civil engineer, told Caracol Radio that all had seemed normal, even though the plane was flying through a storm, with flashes of lightning, as it neared the airport.

"The plane was coming in perfectly. We were just about to land, everything was under control," he said. The accident "appeared out of nowhere."

After the plane hit and skidded to a stop on the pavement, Ramirez said he struggled to free himself and his wife from their seat belts.

"We tried to get out of the plane because the plane was starting to shoot flames," he said. "In a few minutes, a police patrol arrived and helped us."

Survival was "a miracle of God. Thanks to God we are alive," Ramirez said, though his wife suffered a dislocated shoulder.

Firefighters quickly doused the beginnings of a fire on a wing, police Gen. Orlando Paez said. He a group of police officers who were waiting at the airport for the plane to fly them back to the mainland aided in rescuing victims.

Barrero, commander of the Colombian air force's Caribbean Air Group, said by telephone from San Andres that "the skill of the pilot kept the plane from colliding with the airport."

He said the cause of the accident was uncertain. "You can't speculate. Lightning? A gust of wind? The investigation will say," Barrero said.

The jet crashed at 1:49 a.m. on the island, a resort area of 78,000 people about 120 miles (190 kilometres) east of the Nicaraguan coast.

Ninety-nine passengers were taken to Amor de Patria Hospital on San Andres, said Dr. Robert Sanchez, the hospital director. "It's incredible. For the dimension (of the accident), there should be more," he said.

Sanchez said an initial examination indicated that the single fatality may have been caused by a heart attack.

Twenty other passengers were treated at another clinic, according to the national civil aviation agency.

Among the seriously injured was a 12-year-old girl who suffered a broken pelvis, Gallardo said.

A 1-½-year-old boy among the passengers wasn't listed among those with serious injuries.

Dr. Ricardo Villarreal, director of the clinic of the same name, said the pilot suffered some cuts to his face and was under observation. He identified him as Wilson Gutierrez.

The airline, Aerovias de Integracion Regional SA, said it has about 20 planes, including 10 Boeing 737-700 jets. It said in a Twitter posting that it was "working and investigating with the aeronautical authorities to determine the causes."

Barrero said scattered pieces of the plane blocked part of the 7,800-foot (2,380-meter) runway. But enough was usable that air ambulances would be able to land, he said.


******************************

I underlined a few key points there, that really got my attention. Let's start with the known fact that the aircraft was flying through a storm, which is, according to some, "An Act Of God" (according to my insurance policies).  There were reports that the aircraft MAY have been struck by lightning (again, "Act of God") and crashed on landing.  So, at present, while they do not know, the likely cause is a bolt of lightning striking the craft, causing damage at a very inopportune time.  For the sake of this argument, pending new information, let's make the single assumption that a lightning bolt did in fact hit the plane and caused at least some systems failures at the critical point of landing.

Now here is what pisses me off. Several times people are "thanking god" for the "miracle" of almost everyone surviving this crash. judging by the pic, the plane came down pretty hard.  What bugs me is this -- Instead of thanking the pilots and air crew for their handling of the crisis, and the pilots Especially in preventing a MUCH greater tragedy by avoiding other aircraft on the runway and the airport itself, instead of thanking the ground emergency response crews for their prompt action in fighting the fires from the crash and rescuing the persons within the craft, instead of thanking the designers and engineers of the 737 to make the plane at least lightning resistant and safety features to aid in survivability IN a crash, no no, let us instead thank the 'being' that, by its own definition, was either directly in control of the weather and the lightning bolt smacking the craft (and I will point out that while aircraft are designed to resist and channel away lightning strikes from critical systems, they are far from 100% lightning proof), or, at the very least, was CAPABLE of controlling the weather and lightning, and could easily of prevented said strike. 

The ironic part? If it were a missile, let's say, that took out an engine (or some other critical system), rather than a lightning bolt, and they found the person/persons responsible for firing that missile, those individual(s) would be charged at, at the VERY least, one count of murder, 130 counts of attempted murder, firing on an aircraft, and however many other charges that could be brought up. 

But act of god?

"Oh, thank god we survived it." 

HELLO! In this scenario, (assuming it was in fact fault of lightning/weather), God CAUSED THE CRASH!

To me, I find it a pity god does NOT exist in this scenario - then justice could be brought for the murder of one, and attempted murder of a hundred and thirty others.  Further, to illustrate this more, If it is found that the fault was a structural/engineering fault, then the responsibility would be put on those responsible, same as if it was a maintenance screwup.

My point does relate back to what I said to PD earlier - people would not hold god to the same level of responsibility that we do to ourselves, for if they did, well, religion would find itself crucified, wouldn't it?

Personally, I would want to shake the hands of the air crew, and the EMT crews for their magnificent work in taking what could of  been a massive tragedy and limiting it to a sad accident that all save one lived to tell the tale of - then flip a bird to the sky.

And while I admit, that in this case, the assumption that it was the weather is yet to be proven, there are plethora's of other incidents where they are certain that "acts of god" have killed many an aircraft, and those within.

[paindancer]

Luck, chance, happenstance.. people widely attribute to the supernatural that which we do not understand.  Nor to we impose our own moral compass on it in general, and the superstitious will declare both the event and the survival acts of god.

However, it could very well be an act of pidgeon as well.  A bird in the intake could down a plane.  Heavy storm could be lightning.. but that would cause system failure, not a sudden drop.  More than likely was a wind shear resulting in a sudden drop.  After that, its engineering.  The planes are designed to hold together and distribute loads.. most crashes are catestrophic, but in this case the impact was  relatively minor.

Yes, its fortunate the injuries were as light as it was. 

I doubt there was supernatural intervention one way or the other from a single divine being.  It has better things to do.  Peoples highers working overtime?  perhaps. 

[RKCoon]

I thought about starting another topic, but meh, Thisll do.


Well, the hot topic as of late has been the mosque proposed to be put up in the vicinity of 'ground zero' aka the site of the trade center. Here is my thought on it --

Setting aside for the moment the hatred that the extremists have for yankeeland (and the debate on weather its been earned or not) my question is this - why do they need it at all, regardless of location? This same question applies the the christians, catholics, etc.  Take for example the pagans and wiccans - they are generally quite happy to have a small altar in the privacy of their homes to worship in, and they dont make a big deal of it. Why is it, then, that the right wing faiths must make such a fuss? Is it not enough for them to worship at home, in private? why must they spend tens of thousands of millions of $$$$ to build such structures to congregate in? 

As a Canadian, I respect (even if I vocally disagree and dislike) peoples right to believe whatever they want, but I will ask, why do they need this structure? Is their faith, is their god so needy as to need a structure to go into to praise? Can their gods not hear their praise and worship and prayers outside of these buildings?

Now, obviously,  the yankee right wingers are doing their best to whip up hatred with this topic, considering the wounds from 911 and the BS regarding it is still fairly tender, and also obviously, the religion itself - like ALL organized major religions - has serious freaking issues, however, isnt there better things to be spending time and money on, than to build yet another eyesore church to clutter up the landscape?

[paindancer]

Bottom line is, it wasnt Islam that attacked the us on 911.  It was a few radicals who happened to be Muslim.  Big difference.

Yes.. some americans can make that distinction.  But.. 20% of americans think Obama is muslim so go figure.  From a constitutional standpoint, this is in the clear.

To my understanding, they specifically want to reach out and use this location to send a resounding oppositional message to the acts done by those radicals.  As such, they want this to be a community building, offering a wide range of services, in addition to being a mosque.. hence the price tag.

But I can see your point.. of it being yet another multimillion dollar superchurch.  I think both Mohammed and Jesus would balk at this, as their ministries were aimed at the poor and oppressed.. by those who would create the expensive temples: the ruling elite.

[The Sentinel]

What did Jesus do to the moneychangers in the temple? Oh yes... that...

[RKCoon]

What, praytell?