AVA Discussion: Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?

[WingedWolfPsion]

You know, I can accept being called a pillar in the psi or vamp community, but I refuse to be called an elder.  I'm only 37 ffs.
The fact that I know full well where that term came from to begin with only makes it more irritating.  Between that and the Black Veil, I want to get out my 10-sided dice again.

It just means you've been a loudmouth in the community for a very long time, and you have probably started some sites or forums and written stuff.  That's pretty much all it takes.

Does it do harm when such folks step back and let nimrods who don't have a clue proclaim themselves to be authorities?  Of course it does.  But we don't have a responsibility to the community unless we CHOOSE to take on that responsibility.  This is all volunteer work, nobody's paying us for it.

[vitchy]

I wouldnt mind being called an elder.  Its a compliment to be looked at as wise and informative to someone who is unsure of themselves.

[WingedWolfPsion]

"Elder" just means I'm old, it doesn't imply anything about wise.  lol...

Term first cropped up after Vampire: The Masquerade started using it.  Coincidence?  I think not.  At least it hasn't leached over into the psi community, and therians prefer the more whimsical 'greymuzzle'.

[vitchy]

Maybe if you think past your nose you would see that someone who has lived longer could possibly be more wise than a younger being.  How did you learn things?? On your own or did you have parents and guardians that helped you learn??  Think about it.

[WingedWolfPsion]

The keyword there is "COULD".  They COULD be more wise.  On the other hand, they COULD not be, too.  What does that have to do with me?  I'm 37.  The majority of so-called elders in the community are under age 50.  They might be elder if you're a kid, but they aren't elder by the standards of any OTHER society.  As has just been pointed out, this term is being used to refer to people who haven't even been in the community for 5 years, and are in their 20s.  It's absurd and silly.

[vitchy]

Well if they are in their 20's then no they are not your "elders".  If you are 37.  But does someone have to be "100" to be considered wise.  Good luck with that cause current life expectancy doesnt even go to 80 so I guess we are all dumb and blind wondering through the world with no clue to what we have and want. 

My Dad was 72 when he died and I would have came to him with any problem because he was my elder and more wise about things than anyone else I knew.  Your definition of elders and mine are definitely too different to even meet in the middle. 

By the way Im 36. 

[WingedWolfPsion]

Yes, I honestly can't make heads or tails of yours.

I said I think it's ridiculous to call someone an elder just because they do a lot of work in the OVC.  They're not  necessarily elder, and they're not necessarily wise.  The term came from a roleplaying game, it's a complete affectation, and I don't see any good in it.

You countered with how older people could be wise, and old people like your grandfather were great counselors.  What on earth does that have to do with anything?

[Maenad]

Yes, I honestly can't make heads or tails of yours.

I said I think it's ridiculous to call someone an elder just because they do a lot of work in the OVC.  They're not  necessarily elder, and they're not necessarily wise.  The term came from a roleplaying game, it's a complete affectation, and I don't see any good in it.

You countered with how older people could be wise, and old people like your grandfather were great counselors.  What on earth does that have to do with anything?

You know I know old people who are not wise and young people who in there teens you'd swear you were talking to an adult. To me being wise dose not equal to age, it equals to what you have learned despite how much time you've had here.

Personally for me to respect someone they have to prove that they are worthy of respect, everyone starts at 0. That I think is a position that everyone should take. That way you aren't being used or harmed by someone who only has convinced a few other people that they are worth it. 

[masticina]

Mmm though question what is the place of an elder.
It really depends on the systems in place, an elder ought to be a wise person capable to advice and guide. But for me an elder also has to be free to make their own choices.

There are within the community different forms of how things are done. Some use a very order-shaped like system. With ranks and functions.. a great way to teach specific things indeed. But also can lead to abuse as has happened before. I am not sure if an elder even would have to be part of this. An elder in a way must be able to transcent the structured order to fullfill his/her most capabilities.

Remember how in the business world there are different kind of functional supports. There might be a boss that has to ensure work is done but also another that has to ensure that everybody is well trained. An elder stuck in a job in an order based system might indeed be "safer" as it is obvious why and where. But also restrict his/her full abilities to aid others.

In the end it all seems to depends on variations how we perceive things. As one might be wise.. but dead wrong as the same time on certain topics. And some elders "rust" so to say getting stuck in a certain point of their life. Wise is then one who knows when to pull back from the community. True wisdom like the flame burning is not something easy to define.

Now about structures, my feelings about that is that yes sometimes it aids. Sometimes it is very useful to have a structure but it not always is perfect. Sometimes again structures in their nature restrict to, for instance of you have to tell one of the leaders of a group that another member did something terrible! In a to structures system it might take 7-8 layers of "leaders" to reach said leader. And what if there is a reason why things go wrong lets say corruption. If there is no way to contact the right leader...

But the other extreme is a chaotic "we are all equal" system with not much to work with. Hardly a group indeed more a herd of cats! It can work as long as one understands that the rules are all made as things go on. Like cats deal with issues

Both Order in Extreme and Chaos in Extreme are troublesome routes to go. One needs to seek a balance, of course there are always control freaks. And if you are stuck in an order structure ran by an control freak you might just as well be a chess piece on a board.

Whatever path you follow whatever you do retain your own self and know when you are abused.

[Hecata]

I think too many people attach the title "Elder" to themselves to claim recognition!
To be a true elder takes many years usually a person is old by the time they have earned that title and have perfect balance to be able to guide people in their life path and yet have no prejudice and open minded with much understanding of the world around them.
Many old souls such as I still can not use the term "Elder" because this is a whole new lifetime and although I am 52 in this lifetime yet my soul,and true self is much older,I am still 52 in this lifetime!
I may be wise beyond this lifetime so a "Wise one" would be a more appropriate term for many such as myself.
People need to detach themselves from the whole "Elder" thing,it seems meaningless when used like its a common every day privilege to use.

[paindancer]

I prefer the very stoic term of:

Smartypants

Smartypants Paindancer.. gee dosnt that have a nice ring to it?

Seriously, I have never found the practice of titles to be one I understood or prescribed to.  I would like to think that people generally take what I have to say seriously here because of the historic content of my posts, not a silly title.  I refuse to take the title of Master in the BDSM community as well.  Same principle.

Look at martial arts.  I have been practicing.. for longer than I want to admit.  When people ask my what color my belt is.. I usually say I am still learning and they respond white.  Thats fine with me.  I am always learning.  Title means little if anything.

[Sfinelli3]

The name fits you well Pain. Maybe title may not be needed, but leadership, definately.  Young Vampires need people to turn to, to go to, especially after awakening, to know what is happening to them and to find their way.  Also, in this constant growing fad of Twilight and True Blood, we need people who will establish some kind of order and discretion in who is allowed in and who may stay.

[paindancer]

The name fits you well Pain. Maybe title may not be needed, but leadership, definately.  Young Vampires need people to turn to, to go to, especially after awakening, to know what is happening to them and to find their way.  Also, in this constant growing fad of Twilight and True Blood, we need people who will establish some kind of order and discretion in who is allowed in and who may stay.

Hmmm.. mabye I will let you call me Lord Smartypants Paindancer.. but just you because you are special!

Slippery slope you describe there Sin.  What you are describing is a tightly controlled coven or even a cult.  Certainly some self policing is needed, and I think there are members who do that.

[Maenad]

Hmmm.. mabye I will let you call me Lord Smartypants Paindancer.. but just you because you are special!

Slippery slope you describe there Sin.  What you are describing is a tightly controlled coven or even a cult.  Certainly some self policing is needed, and I think there are members who do that.

I agree though it's easy to tell the twilight obsessed and people who really have the vamp condition. (True blood doesn't count because of all the hot people and lack of clothing >.> so being an Eric Northman fangirl is perfectly ok. >.> Seriously look at his bum. XD) lol back to the topic XD

I think it's dangerous to have any sort of cult like appearance because as Manson showed us it's really easy to control people, so we really should be advocating against such things, and help to break apart anything that we see as suspicious. (that last bit goes for everyone) That's why really it's ok to have a community however it should be stressed that no one should tell you what to do. The whole power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's why things like hierarchies make me instantly suspicious.

[Nadia115]

I was raised more Native American than white being part Aztec, Mayan and Cherokee. Elder is a term some what used for as long as humans have been on earth. Dikaneisdi is the closest I can come to the Tslagi/Cherokee word for it. Though I have to admit some self appointed "elders" are more like dukshanee no matter what society you are talking about. Which is getting away from what I was going to say really. Elder has absolutely nothing to do with age unless you are saying it to mean an elderly person. In Tslagi an elderly man (as in age wise) would be called udvsonvhi and an elderly woman(again age wise) would be called agayvlige .As far as position with in a community it is a title that has to be earned through learning and then teaching and guiding. It is someone who has more knowledge on something than you that you can go to for information and guidance. It is also someone who does not allow ego to get in their way and is willing to do a LOT of listening and consideration before saying something most times. It is someone that understands that no matter how much they know, there is still a LOT to be learned and that if you listen to those who you are an elder to and think on what they say, you can even learn something from them. It is not a title to be taken so one can beat their chest and proclaim to be better than everyone else. There is a balance that must be kept along with the willingness to keep learning for the good of others, to keep helping for the good of others and to be ready to lead others for the good of the whole. Age of a soul or body does not have anything to do with this. I have a cousin who is about 7 years younger than I am and being that she has been raised Lakota (cousin by marriage) and has grown up on Rosebud, I would consider her an elder in everything Lakota. My oldest daughter who has been raised the same way I was who is only 16 could be considered and elder by someone in their 30's when it comes to what she knows and what she can teach. I only see a problem in this when you have pretenders who step up thinking it means power and they lead people the wrong way or those who allow their ego to get in the way of what it really means to be an elder. As far as being an elder having to do with roll playing games and coming from roll playing games...not unless the Native Americans were playing dungeons and dragons before Columbus ever got lost and tripped across this land.