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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  AVA Discussion: Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders? 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: AVA Discussion: Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?  (Read 30511 times)
Merticus
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« on: March 27, 2008, 02:43:21 pm »

The following is a question that was posed for group discussion at TWILIGHT II in Atlanta, GA this past March 2008.  I'd like to continue the discussion here on the AVA forum to gather everyone's opinion and input on the particular subject.  Please answer the question (all parts) below and offer your perspective!


Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?

Discussion: 
What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?  What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?
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TAYLOR
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 12:53:28 pm »

 I do believe that elders are those of our kind that have been here on this world the longest. That doesn't necessarily mean just by age, but also through experience. I believe that the title is like a medal of recognition to show others that are just coming up who to go to for answers, and who they should respect because of the paths they have already went down. There is always a good and a bad to certain things, but I think that it would be based on the particular individual. If someone with a lot of experience and has been awakened for a long time decides to be generous and help any of us in need then it can be a good thing because we can learn from them, but if they choose to shun the newly awakened seeing them as lower class simply because of their time and experience then it could create many problems. I think it should be a certain form of order because Elders have earned their status, and they can guide through the transition of a newly awakened. If some feel they shouldn't be approached directly it could be that they have too many pressing matters to be side tracked and thrown off. It's like a military chain of command, it's not to degrade any one, but to insure that we know what status we should work towards, and what status to look to for help and guidance. Whether they have the label or not does not matter, there will still be those of us that have been here longer and that has more experience than others, and sooner or later it will be recognized, why not just put it out up front instead of wondering who to go to. The only question from there is, how and who decides what Elder status is...
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Nata-Chan
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2008, 03:45:24 pm »

I agree with TAYLOR on this subject. It is a very interesting topic to discuss.
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arcane
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 01:45:09 pm »

Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?

Discussion: 
What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?  What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?

Personally I try to guide and help everyone that comes to me. I don't like the term 'elder' and I cringe every time someone calls me it, as there's this whole mindset that seems to go with it. I've had people take on this weird reverence, like I'm some revered personage. And that just rubs me wrong. We just want to be treated as normal people, not like the pope.

So I can see where many people would avoid stepping up to the term elder. We're just people like everyone else, and while we want respect, everyone deserves that too. We tend to be leaders in the communities, but at the same time, we need to listen to others' ideas as well.

I do think that those with great experience and knowledge should be available, but there has to be a nice balance for some peace and quiet as well. For example, I don't mind helping someone, but when 20 people flood me, it gets to be too much. So I can understand the desire to not be available all the time.

So I suppose after all this rambled thought on the subject, my answer is Yes we need leaders to step up to the plate. And they need to be available as much as they are willing to share their time. And that time allotted needs to be respected and appreciated by the communities.
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Princedax
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 01:07:50 am »

This is a subject I normally shy away from. Lately it gets old after a while. Some of you in here know me and some don't. I haven't been too active in here lately, for personal reasons. My local community here, asked me to step up as an elder and I did. 9 months went by and I was asked to step up as primus, and I did. Unfortunately a lot of roll playing guidelines had become mixed in to our community. I tried my best to set things straight, but with no luck. And after weeks of meetings we decided to close our community down. I, myself, only talk with my vampire friends on line now. I don't care much for people here lately.

Let me get to the point as far as Elders. Yes they are needed. And an Elder should be someone that has not only the knowledge and ability to be in a place of leadership, but also be able to deal with the mental stress of being in such a position of leadership.

Without elders a community can go astray and become lost and blur in with wannabe and rollplayers just like my community did.
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ariesffa1500
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 12:40:24 am »

I have to agree with Taylor in a lot of what he says but with some minor modifications. One of the things that makes an "elder" or an "ancient" or and "old one" is not just experiences in this current lifetime but in the past ones as well. The longer the soul has been "vampire" or whatever you need an "elder" for the more experience that can be called from. For example I have been a "vampire" for well over ten thousand years. (If you wish to know why I be the old just ask me in a personal message please.) But because of my relatively "young and inexperienced vessel, body, or whatever you call it" I am not considered an "elder". So "elder" is just a term. Humans insist on naming everything as it were. We as "vampires" and others in the community should not have to hold to the prescribed tenets of the human societies. At least that is my opinion.
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 09:59:25 am »

So "elder" is just a term. Humans insist on naming everything as it were. We as "vampires" and others in the community should not have to hold to the prescribed tenets of the human societies. At least that is my opinion.

I completely agree.

As long as you can demonstrate that you are equal in power, skill and capabilities to other "Elders" in the energy-working & vampire communities then you should be fine.

Any time someone wants a demo from me, just IM me and ask.

-Arcane
www.HouseofAncients.com
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Etheros Twilight
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 11:06:22 pm »

Meh...good points made....i cant imagine that it would really benefit anyone so much to have elders to go to if everyone shares what they know with eachother....kinda like on these forums....we exchange ideas and ask each other for technique tips....and as such benefit...

....that and i would hate to be called old so early in the game.....lol...this cycle for me isn't too far in....lets not poke fun at how many times some of us have come back...lol
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ariesffa1500
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 02:57:57 am »

Yes yes because some of us have come back many times... and not necessarily by choice either......... Smiley
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From whence we have come do we once again return. Life and Death are integral parts of the same whole, without one the other does not exist.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Such is true, thus knowledge is power so knowledge corrupts and absolute knowledge corrupts absolutely.
DRAGON
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 04:37:01 pm »

Well, an elder is a person that is older than most of the vampires in the community. He has to share the knowledge with the community and teach the awakened in the vampire arts.

This is the definition of an elder as I recall it. I think if the community is solid and strong, and has the people that can share the knowledge with everyone else, there is no need of an elder. Besides the recognition of someone's work is inside. There is no need for somebody to tell us if what we did is good or bad. Within the community we must promote and acknowledge the work that has been done within the community. And acknowledge the people who have done it.
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Etheros Twilight
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 12:37:17 am »

Perhaps, however in that context many of us are elders.....some of us go back ages....and i would say everyone here that has been around that long has something they've specialised in, and can teach the masses if proper...myself, I'm strongest in astral combat....so me teaching what I'm best at would be promoting war....not something that is exactly beneficial....not to mention that i wouldn't want some of my more arcane techniques in the hands of any random person....there are many, both vampire and otherwise, that would use that data to hunt us....its annoying enough anyways to bother fighting the imps and malevolent spirits that are attracted to my energy.....its somewhat like how we have the calling or beacon or w/e u wanna call it.....only to demons its not so much "bright and shiny = possible friend" as it is "bright and shiny = someone to mess with and try to topple" ....but....its good to have target practice, no?
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sandmanbrian777
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 02:29:37 pm »

Greetings from Trilliums Halo:

What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community? 
*****Yes for sure.  It is one who all can feel safe to go to with questions for learning and advice.  An additional function would be resolution of disputes.  Not to popular but sometimes necessary.
 
In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?
*******Mutual respect, and a long line of wise impartial decision making.
   
Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?
*******Anyone can have a title but it doesn't mean you respect the person or their opinion.  Is the Title granted or usurped ?

What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?
***Someone should have the authority to lead by conscent to set a path and direction for the future.  We set sail for the futre now by pre-planing and not by putting out fires.   A leader has to provide for the safety and security of the flock.   Sometimes  the title goes straight to a persons head and they are no longer friends but a boss that finds fault.  Freindship ends and Yes people become their new supporters.  I have met some great people who have no idea of how to lead or set the example for others.   Self serving aggrandizement ?

Brian ..................................V""V..............
*******************************************


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figment
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2008, 08:25:33 pm »

 Real elders are to be especially commended and respected for all the immense work they do. And that's why this post is a little emotional about the people whom I feel are poser elders.


What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   
Right now, an elder is any bozo that's active in the community for a significant period of time. They don't have to be actually doing anything but blabbing their mouth online and calling it "helping people awaken!" And if they sit on their asses long enough in front of the computer, they'll get called an elder. This needs to be fixed. From what I hear from REALLY old people (like senior discount vampires) this is not the way it used to be and the way it used to be sounds really nice.

In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   
No, but that sounds fantastic. I do think that those bozos are generally really nice, cool, people, but not elders. And it would be nice to have a medium level. For people who are not elders "yet" elders in waiting, I suppose. I also think (and these positions might be shared by the same person) that real elders need help. I have known an elder that went through a lot and because of this he neglected his duties as an elder. I think that if he had a, I dunno, personal assistant of sorts, that situation might have gone over smoother and been easier to handle for him. True elders do SO much for us!

Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place? 
Yes. When I was young and naive (before you say it! Now, I'm young and guillable.), I got into a lot of bad situations because of "elders." I am constantly amazed at the stupid shit I did as a little girl. Much of it, though, was done because I am a very hierarchal person. I fall into line. I am not a leader, I'm a doer. And that means that "elders" get to use me very readily for their little games. How to fix this though? I think the best way would be to follow more of The Old Way where the elders actually did shit, where as now there's like what, a handful that actually do anything. I think Elder should be a TITLE. Like.... official. Other elders nominate you, you accept, and there's a vote among elders. Elders have to meet at meetings. If an elder is to be an elder, he needs to do crap and keep in touch with people. If you're not an elder, but everyone knows you in the community, then that is exactly what you are. You're that guy that everyone knows, but stop calling yourself an elder because you don't communicate with other elders, maybe you're so young you have a hot head or are flaking in and out of the community and being figment-y. You can be awesome and helpful to elders without being an elder. I think people really want the title and it's so easy to convince people you have it (because there's so wany little 14 year olds) that you get screwed up guys with little girls like I was.

What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?
First, I'd like to point out that "pseudo-feudalistic" is a really horrid word for this situation at this time, because our situations as members of the community does not leave us stuck. We can rise in status. I think anyone can be an elder is they work for it. If they become a good person (which is what you should be trying to do in like anyway, really) and then choose to direct your energy towards the community, you can be an elder. I think right now, people view being an elder as a rite of passage. Like... I'm gonna get and I'll become an elder and then I'll die. Like that's somewhere mixed in with marriage and kids. But it's not. Being an elder is a lot of work. And one should think... "Do I have the time for that?" It's a lot of money with gas and meals during meetings and other things... one should think, "Do I have the money for that?" It's a lot of drama. It's the elder that large (read: most dramatic) conflicts are brought to to be resolved. One should think, "Do I have the patience for this?" I mean, really... Do you really want to be an elder?

I can't compare the courtly community so well as the rest of the vampire community, but I can say that it works well in other organizations I've been in. As of now, the general vampire community just randomly decides (not elects, that implies that there's intent) who's an elder and then when there's a conflict they look to him and he goes, "Huh? Me?" And then the community thinks, "Of course you. You're a fucking elder!" Where as if there were established elders who knew they were elders and knew to get to work, they would. Hopefully, jeeze.

I guess the end of that is that we need more elders like Merticus who get off their asses do stuff, and communicate with other elders and the community on many different theatres.
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Maloryn
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 03:08:31 pm »

I have the strangest urge to start referring to any self-titled elder as "Papa Smurf"... Hmmmm...

---Mal
(Not an Elder, but occasionally referred to as elderly and would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those darn kids !)
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Etheros Twilight
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 03:24:05 pm »

meh....papa smurf.....reminds me of a very bad joke about smurfs....(not dirty...just cruel)...what color does a smurf turn when you choke em?....(thats actually caused a very long debate....that somehow ended with me looking into a medical textbook....)

but.....i tend to stray from the hierarchical structures, over time some people will rise to the top....others will be acknowledged as filth....etc....its just a matter of the individual who enters the forum to watch the conversations and figure out who is who and what they do....do you think anyone here would really come to me for say....help with a blessing? lol
....a banishing or other help dealing with annoying, destructive or downright malevolent beings, however....i have been asked from time to time to help there....
*disclaimer* my statement is in no way an advertisement. in no way do i intend, or desire, to be looked at like an "elder"....you whippersnappers....=p

....seriously tho, i kinda agree with the whole "do i have the time, patience and resources for all this" internal debate....i rather not be dragged out of my cave every tuesday to sit around a bonfire with other old farts to play bingo and discuss how the world is coming to an end again....=p
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