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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Energy Work, Psionics, & Paranormal Studies  |  General Psi | Psychic | Psionics | Energetic Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  Shielding 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 04:58:14 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: WingedWolfPsion
On: February 05, 2008, 04:36:01 PM

I don't believe in karma. lol

I've also pieced back together too many damaged psis.  They aren't exactly tougher, they're less sensitive.  Like scar tissue...sensitivity and flexibility are lost.  Sometimes irrevocably.  I don't recommend taking injuries you can avoid.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 04:59:48 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: Intent_Analysis
On: February 06, 2008, 02:26:35 AM

Your disbelief in karma does not revoke it's existance, nor does it protect you from it's effects.  The only thing that makes you seem to be immune to it is the fact that you have voluntarily blinded yourself to it's effects.

"tough"  /tʌf/ - adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun, verb
–adjective
1. strong and durable; not easily broken or cut. 
2. not brittle or tender. 
3. difficult to masticate, as food: a tough steak. 
4. of viscous consistency, as liquid or semiliquid matter: tough molasses. 
5. capable of great endurance; sturdy; hardy: tough troops. 
6. not easily influenced, as a person; unyielding; stubborn: a tough man to work for. 
7. hardened; incorrigible: a tough criminal. 
8. difficult to perform, accomplish, or deal with; hard, trying, or troublesome: a tough problem. 
9. hard to bear or endure (often used ironically): tough luck. 
10. vigorous; severe; violent: a tough struggle.

The problem with gaining strength is that you lose flexibility.  In any case, this is the effect.  Consider that the skin of a baby is beautiful and soft when it is first born...but this skin can also be torn like paper.  As the child grows, and lives through more and more happenstance, it's skin toughens.  True, it is not as beautiful as it once was...but it is now a more durable covering.  The purpose of scar tissue, in this respect, is to prevent further injury.

To put it in simpler terms, "No pain, no gain."  Even the building of muscle-tissue, through exercise, is a process of acetic acids breaking down the muscle tissue, creating large rifts, for the muscle to grow back thicker and harder.  Consider, also, the development of brain tissue:  in the beginning, it is pliable and unmarked, but also empty.  Through experience, the tissue toughens, wrinkling and folding, obtaining new information, but also becoming more hard-wired towards what it already knows, eventually cementing it.

It is a discouraging thing, but the continuous avoidance of pain is a road of weakness, the road of softness, of the long-nailed aristocrat who does not work.  I am not saying to seek pain, but rather to welcome it when it comes, considering the reality of the situation is that, in the grand order of things, you are simply being put through the rigors of life.  The tougher your shell, the softer your hide...so that when you are penetrated, your defenses crumble like so much putty.

I am not suggesting that we leave ourselves defenseless, but rather we recognize the futility of the enemies attempts to harm you.  You will be hurt, you will lose things, your life will change...but through it all, you will still exist, you will still live.

"Know ye then this, the sorrows are but shadows, they pass and are done.  But there is that which remains."
                                       -Liber AL vel Legis, The Book of the Law

That which remains is you.

Hiding from pain is not the way to conquer it, neither is wrapping yourself in imagined bubbles of safety.  If an attack is meant to get you, it will, and you cannot stop it.  Rather, I propose that we live our lives in a different way, wherein we do not fear our fellow magician...or anyone else for that matter.  The worst they can do is kill you, and is that not the truest form of ascendance?

To live in fear is live cloistered inside your shell, and to abandon the world outside to it's own devices...and as a truly responsible magician, how can we see and not act?

instead, let us teach to others the meaning of kindness, so that they will, rather than attack us, befriend us.  I propose a Christian approach to mysticism, my allies.  We are a brotherhood, all of us who practice the Divine Arts...and it is time we begin acting as such.

Why do you think we are not respected but in passing?  Why do you think the government does not truly consider us, and why do you think we do not truly have a voice in that government?  We are divided, against ourselves, over petty lines of dogma, just like the Accursed Christians we profess to hate!

I say this, Hate No One.  Hate is a tool used by darker powers to hold us apart, to keep us from aligning together and truly making a difference in the world!  Instead of doing what we should, acting as one to change the face of earth, we are shattered and broken!  Each of us spins in his own little box, burning furiously the candle at both ends, but working towards no true goal!  We are lost, and we are lost because there is no direction for us to be moving!

What we need, friends, is a central alliance between ALL magisters, recognizing the similarities between each of our arts, those being Gematria, Symbolism, and Mediumship.  Each of our arts holds one or all fo these, with Sacred symbols, Sacred Language, and Sacred Spirits (whether those spirits are our own or those of others).  We are the self-same ideas in practice through many myriad facets of a diamond, all the time projecting the same 3!

We are one, but we are broken and confused, lost and staggered, and unable to see our brotherhood for what it truly is:

Power!

The power of unification!

One Unified Front, All Magicians to Stand as One!
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 05:00:41 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: Garenzo
On: February 06, 2008, 08:31:13 AM

runs away from long confusing post* ARRRGH

At any rate, I believe in karma, but only in that it comes in moderation and is random in nature.


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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 05:04:18 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: Intent_Analysis
On: February 06, 2008, 04:19:29 PM

Karma cannot be random.  If you believe that, then you do not believe in Karma.  You  believe in chance.

Karma is the balance of the universe, also known as Maat.  It is the pendulum that swings, from one direction to another.

The goal of Adeptus Exemptus is the point where one is no longer affected by karma, as one's pendulum has been stilled.  No more action/reaction...just action.

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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 05:05:14 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: WingedWolfPsion
On: February 06, 2008, 08:07:19 PM

Just because you believe it, doesn't make it real. Wink

The following is why I do not believe in karma:

Let's say I'm having a bad day, so I decide to run over a small child in the street, and kill him.  No one is paying attention, and I'm never caught.
This is bad.

But, that child would have grown up to become the next Hitler.
So, my action was good.

But my reason for doing it was bad.
But the outcome is still better for everyone concerned.

And me?  Since I was never caught, and presumeably have no conscience, nothing at all happens to me.

THE UNIVERSE HAS NO MORALITY.
Morality is a subjective issue.  What one person considers good, another may see as bad.  The universe does not, and CANNOT, judge what is good, and what is bad.  Therefore, when someone does a 'bad' thing, the universe cannot make a bad thing happen to them.  Because there is no objective criteria for what 'bad' is.

If you throw a ball against a brick wall, whether or not it bounces back to YOU depends entirely on the trajectory and the shape of the wall.

If it were simply a matter of cause and effect, then 'good' and 'bad' do not enter into the picture.  A truly evil action could result in a good outcome.
If it were a matter of reflecting back to the person what they send out, then running over someone with a car should result in YOUR being run over by a car (though that is much simplified).

If it were a matter of intent and emotion being involved, then as long as you really believed the child was satan when you ran him over, and did it out of love for humanity, then your karma would be good--you'd get good feelings back.

Karma makes NO LOGICAL SENSE.

I have seen no evidence of karma in action--ANYWHERE.  Good things happen, bad things happen--the cause and effect aren't there.  The idea that it's all explained by what happened in previous lives is a cop-out.

I once heard a native speaker say that the Western concept of karma is largely the result of a failure to actually TRANSLATE the word into English--that keeping it untranslated makes it seem mystical and mysterious.
He said, if you were to translate this word, then the best translation for it would be "Habits".
And that made a lot of sense to me.
You don't want to hang on to bad habits, do you?  Of course not.  You want to develop good habits.  Though having habits at all can be bad, depending on your point of view--some mage paths encourage a person to rid themselves of all habits.

Doesn't it sound completely different without using that loaded word, 'karma'?  TOTALLY different meaning from the Western conception of it.  All about your falling into patterns that tend to repeat because they've become habit...and nothing about getting the smackdown from reality because you were naughty. 

Now...

Babies' skins aren't delicate and easily torn.  They're just as tough as adults' skins.  They are more prone to getting irritated by chemicals and whatnot, but that isn't universal either.
They also aren't beautiful.  They may seem pudgy and soft from being in liquid for all that time, but babies are usually born with zits and things.

Next:
It's true, minor damage to your muscles can lead you to strengthen them.
Minor damage to your NERVES does NOT.
And psi is a function of your brain and nervous system, not a function of your muscles.

Deliberately courting damage to yourself when it leads to no long-term gain, and often leads to permanent losses, is STUPID.  Just plain stupid.  You want to live to be 100, and still able to care for yourself?  You don't ride bulls in the rodeo.  If you do that, you'll wind up a crippled, arthritic, damaged mess, because you'll be wounded often, and you'll never be the same again.  Joints aren't muscles either--damage them, and they don't heal up stronger, they heal up WEAKER.  And from all observations, that's what happens with the energy systems and body as well.

I am willing to face pain to retain my high level of sensitivity, acuity, and fine control.  It's more than worth it.  If an attack is meant to get me, I will do all I can to stop it, and I usually succeed.  At the very least I can lesson the effect, and then swat down the aggressor before he does it again.

I cannot imagine why you think competence with self-defense somehow signifies weakness.  Nor why you would take such a fatalistic approach to it.  I am not about to let someone punch me in the face if I can help it. lol

In short, 'no pain, no gain' may apply to muscle development, but not to joints or nerves, and not to the subtle body, either.

Do not mistake someone who has kept themselve safe, intact, and uharmed for someone who is weak.  The fact that I avoid damage doesn't mean I'm going to fold like a flower petal the moment my shields are breached.  I have no idea where you got that absurd notion.  I'm actually far better equipped to withstand anything that gets through than someone who's been damaged more often and severely than I have.  My system is overall stronger, healthier, and more resilient.
I might feel it more when it gets through--but that's because my senses actually WORK better.
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 05:06:18 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: Intent_Analysis
On: February 07, 2008, 12:25:11 PM

You are mistaken.

A Baby's skin IS delicate, and easily torn.  I know.  I have a new nephew.

His skin is delicate, and easily torn.

There are certain things that exist in the universe, regardless of belief.  There would be karma whether you or I believed in it or not.

And don't think of it as morality.  Think of it as energy exchange.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You are having a bad day, you express that energy by running over a small child.  You have thrust that negative energy that was plaguing you into the world.  Regardless of what action you took to cause this, it has happened...and a void has been created.  There is a space that must be filled now, and, as one who studies biology, I'm sure you would know that nature abhors a void.

The void is filled.  In essence, when you express that energy, you set the pendulum in motion, and it will swing until the energy balances again.

Now, I know you can argue that some evil acts go unpunished...but this flows into an even deeper theory, that being particularly the one in reference to Will, from the Thelemic perspective.  Each person has a predetermined set of responses to given situations, most likely encoded in their DNA.  Your personality is a prescribed set of action/reaction chemicals.  To set the pendulum in motion, all you really have to do is work against your Will, against your programming.  If you are predetermined to kill that child, then you will escape without consequence, since it would actually be more harmful not to do so!

But!  If it is not in your nature to kill children on a regular basis, then you have committed a sin.  And this sin is not based on a Universal Morality, but a personal one.  You have expressed that you know it would be wrong to kill that child, by using the phrases, "I'm having a bad day, so..." and "No one sees me, so I get away."  You don't do things to people to express negative energy without knowing that you are spreading ill will and sadness, and you don't "get away with" things that you think are right.  Knowing that you committed an evil act, in your own heart, is what will lead you to karmic recompense.  In essence, Karma is an actuator, activated by our own personal gravitational charge, whether positive or negative.

It is caused by a personal morality, not a universal one...the universe simply reacts to the energies.

3

p.s.- I don't like arguing.  I hope your child is well.
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 05:07:15 pm »

Transfered From Suscitatio Forum
Posted By: WingedWolfPsion
On: February 07, 2008, 11:00:25 PM

You are mistaken.

A Baby's skin IS delicate, and easily torn.  I know.  I have a new nephew.

His skin is delicate, and easily torn.

I am a mother of two.  It isn't. lol  In fact, as most parents know, babies and young children seem to be made of rubber.  They're far more resilient than most people assume.  I can't imagine how you would tear someone's skin, that would take a lot of force, for a baby or adult alike.  If someone's skin tears easily, I would hope a doctor has been consulted, because that is not a normal issue, even for a newborn.

There are certain things that exist in the universe, regardless of belief.  There would be karma whether you or I believed in it or not.

I would say, there would not be karma, whether you believed in it or not.

And don't think of it as morality.  Think of it as energy exchange.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This means if I shove you, then my body absorbs equal force in the process, even if you're the only one that falls over because I braced myself.  This is simple physics.  It doesn't apply to complex psychological concepts.
If it did, then when I helped a little old lady across the street, someone would try to run me over on my way across.  That would be an opposite reaction.  Sort of.  lol


You are having a bad day, you express that energy by running over a small child.  You have thrust that negative energy that was plaguing you into the world.  Regardless of what action you took to cause this, it has happened...and a void has been created.  There is a space that must be filled now, and, as one who studies biology, I'm sure you would know that nature abhors a void.

There is no such thing as 'negative energy'.  Energy isn't negative or positive in that sense.  You're applying a concept of good and bad to energy, that's silly.  That's like saying there's a negative armchair, or a positive one.  The energy may be carrying patterns that we think are bad, but that is our opinion--not a universal concept.  To something that likes those patterns, there is nothing negative about it.  What's more, by sending that pattern out into the world, I have not lost that pattern.  It's like transfering a computer file--the original is still on the hard drive.  I may have put out energy, but I put out energy all the time, with all sorts of patterns, and I just keep making more.  The pattern of the energy isn't that important, because it only means something to other humans/sentient minds.  The space I created by sending energy can easily be filled by eating some food.

The void is filled.  In essence, when you express that energy, you set the pendulum in motion, and it will swing until the energy balances again.

So the effect created is that I get hungry, since I have to replace that energy.

Now, I know you can argue that some evil acts go unpunished...but this flows into an even deeper theory, that being particularly the one in reference to Will, from the Thelemic perspective.

Wow, wait a minute here...I thought we were talking about physics, and here you've brought in the words 'evil' and 'punished'.  That isn't a physics concept.  That presumes that the universe can tell evil apart from good!  It also assumes that punishment is being delivered according to what's universally good or bad, and once more--that requires the universe to have morality.  Since mother nature has species in which the female eats her mate, and then lets her children devour her body after they hatch--in which mating is usually accomplished by rape, and in which parasites take over the minds of animals and force them to commit suicide, one has to wonder about that whole universal morality issue.

I adore nature, truly--she's a real bitch.  Come up with something humans find horrifying, and some species out there is doing it to survive, or just for fun, as a matter of course.  Without any of this 'karma' business wiping them out (unsurprisingly).

Each person has a predetermined set of responses to given situations, most likely encoded in their DNA.  Your personality is a prescribed set of action/reaction chemicals.  To set the pendulum in motion, all you really have to do is work against your Will, against your programming.  If you are predetermined to kill that child, then you will escape without consequence, since it would actually be more harmful not to do so!

That's a very interesting theory.  If you were really programmed to behave a certain way, then going counter to it would be impossible.  Of course, going counter to what you are predisposed toward COULD be a very good thing for you, and everyone around you.  Say, a sociopath deciding not to become a serial killer, even if they would like to, because prison sucks.

This sounds like you're saying people will be punished for bucking fate.  I love bucking fate, it creates lovely amounts of chaos in things that I don't personally feel should have control over anything anyhow.  I encourage people to buck fate.  If they get punished for it, flip off the punisher, do your best to punish them back, and do it again.  We're big kids, we can handle doing what we WANT instead of what we're supposed to.

But!  If it is not in your nature to kill children on a regular basis, then you have committed a sin.  And this sin is not based on a Universal Morality, but a personal one.  You have expressed that you know it would be wrong to kill that child, by using the phrases, "I'm having a bad day, so..." and "No one sees me, so I get away."  You don't do things to people to express negative energy without knowing that you are spreading ill will and sadness, and you don't "get away with" things that you think are right.  Knowing that you committed an evil act, in your own heart, is what will lead you to karmic recompense.  In essence, Karma is an actuator, activated by our own personal gravitational charge, whether positive or negative.

Basically, if you don't feel bad about it, then nothing bad happens to you.  I pretty much said that.  If you believe in karma and bring bad stuff down on yourself out of guilt and that belief, that is something YOU DID.  Not something inevitable, not something the universe did.  That is why I am immune to karma--I do NOT believe in it.  I do what I want to do, and I do not regret it.  I do not expect 'punishment' or 'reward' for the things I do--and I do not receive it.


It is caused by a personal morality, not a universal one...the universe simply reacts to the energies.

3

p.s.- I don't like arguing.  I hope your child is well.

Seems like what you're saying is that karma only applies if you believe in karma and bring bad stuff down on yourself because you think it's going to happen.  I agree with that completely.
If you strive never to do things that you regret, and truly do not believe that anything will happen to you automatically as a result of your motives or your actions (beyond obvious physics and clear consequences--ie, if you drive your car into a wall, your car and the wall will be damaged--if the cops catch you, you'll be ticketed...etc), then it won't.
Why SHOULD it?
You sent out energy.  The pattern in it only meant something to you, and to sentient minds wired to recieve and interpret it.  It doesn't mean anything to 'the universe'. 

Now, if you start sending out 'oh, I did a bad thing, I should be punished', well, perhaps something will hear you and oblige, but that isn't karma, that's just communicating with other sentient beings, and asking for something dumb.


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