AVA Main Directory | Resource Links | Event Calendar | Vampirism Research Study | Archived AVA Forum v1.0





Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]
User Info
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 02, 2020, 05:14:02 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search

Key Stats
19896 Posts in 2602 Topics by 1004 Members
Latest Member: DragonBLood
Home Help Arcade Login Register
Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  AVA Discussion: Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print
Author Topic: AVA Discussion: Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?  (Read 32359 times)
Sfinelli3
Level 5 Contributor
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 583


There was a boy. A very strange, enchanted boy.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2010, 11:41:50 pm »

There is a Druid organization online that has been around for years and has millions of well educated people that my friend is an administrator of.  It is his job to find people who are not taking things seriously or causing problems iin the forum, going to the other administrators and confirming the booting, then he deletes them.  we need more rules, and a better system if we want to thrive.  you may look at the system if you want.  Just look for the ADF.
Logged

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return.
RKCoon
*
Level 5 Contributor
*
Gender: Male
Posts: 460



« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2010, 10:09:22 am »

Ya know, I would imagine one could be called an 'elder', simply for surviving a decade of BS and crap that goes on in these parts.  That has about as much relevance as anything.
Logged

Automotive Necromancer
Maenad
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Female
Posts: 147



« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2010, 10:15:28 am »

There is a Druid organization online that has been around for years and has millions of well educated people that my friend is an administrator of.  It is his job to find people who are not taking things seriously or causing problems iin the forum, going to the other administrators and confirming the booting, then he deletes them.  we need more rules, and a better system if we want to thrive.  you may look at the system if you want.  Just look for the ADF.

As a forum yes we do need people to stop the trolls but that is different then going around telling people what they are and what they aren't. Like with me I know that I'm a Maenad, through wine I have been given the gift of wines life. However I am also an Atheist, which means that I require proof of something before I believe it. It also means that I love Dionysus but it's the Dionysus in me that connects me to his characters identity. So in some respects I am also Dionysus in the same way that someone who is detective and loves Sherlock Holmes and became a detective because they were inspired by Sherlock Holmes is Sherlock Holmes. I still don't believe in gods but since I think people make gods up from human and nature experience you can embrace the character but still be an Atheist. This makes Dionysus part of my human identity. I do some things that modern Maenad's do and others that I myself do. However I wouldn't tell another Maenad that they aren't a true Maenad because they don't do what I do. In fact some of what I do works for me and I'd openly tell people not to do it because it might be dangerous for them. The last thing I'd want is someone getting a serious skin infection because they wanted to be like me. If they don't need wine the same way I need wine I'm not who I am to be special it's because I am human. There I think lies my major issue with this group mentality that your in or your out. That is a dangerous and slippery slope to go down and leads to people abusing the "power" that they have. With what Nadia115 I agree partly that people who deserve respect are ones that don't go around obsessed with power. However knowing peoples nature the abuse of power is something that doesn't justify the danger of having a titled system. If you respect someone that's cool, and yes you should go to them and learn all you can. However never give anyone power over you, especially absolute power. I know that's a bit of the worst case scenario however I wouldn't be the type of person to build a house in tornado alley without a storm shelter. Wink  
Logged

In vino veritas. Vero est vita.... In the process.
Sfinelli3
Level 5 Contributor
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 583


There was a boy. A very strange, enchanted boy.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2010, 10:53:34 pm »

it is not telling people what they are, its just rules.  this is a privelage, if you act accordingly, youre fine, but cause problems and we dont need you. we dont need the negativity.
Logged

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return.
Nadia115
Guest
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2010, 11:42:27 pm »

Maenad, I agree there is that danger. It really is a nasty little part of human nature to grab up all the power they can. I would think though that a community as a whole would take that from them. Unless of course they are charismatic enough to gain a following which could split us up as has happened through out history in many societies. The trick would be knowing that an elder may know a lot, but another elder may know just as much. That even elders some what have their preferences. So it is better to go to more than one elder. Take what you have learned form each and see what you get. Meanwhile not allowing yourself to actually worship them or think them to be the know all of everything and no one else could compare. My great grandmother is one example of what I am talking about. Wonderful elder and if you were smooth, you could get her to talk about our Aztec and Mayan ancestors and family members. You just had to NOT mention the words Aztec, Mayan or Indian. If you did she would realize what information she was giving out, clam up and scream she is a Mexican and no one can prove otherwise and try and enslave her, abuse her or put her on some government reservation and then would clam up for hours. She knew so many things it was amazing and she would share them...as long as she did not think that you were doing so while seeing her as being Indian. She still lived with that sort of fear until she passed. Serphents were extremely powerful beings. So she melded that with the whip snakes she lived around in the Bayou. Saying that they would grab the end of their tail and roll around and what ever they touched would die.  I would of course tell her "Oh wow! That is very scary...don't worry...I'll keep my eyes open for them while I am outside." I know that is not real, but I also knew she knew her herbs and cures for many things. So I would get her to talk about that and a little bit of history and stories too. She knew a lot from their perspectives and culture that I wanted to hold on to. She could teach a lot, but you would have to muddle through other things such as the whip snake thing. For other bits of information I needed to know such as tracking, I went to my Cherokee uncle who is an elder. If I wanted to learn how to make a knife from obsidian, I would ask him. Weaving I would ask my Cherokee aunt. So on and so forth. Basically I respect them all, I see them as my elders I can learn from, but I also know things that may counter some of the information that comes up, whip tail snake, and then I go on about my way and sort through it all. I don't worship them and they have no power over me. There really has to be a balance all around.
Logged
Maenad
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Female
Posts: 147



« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 05:18:34 am »

Nadia115 I totally agree with you. Like I would have loved to be able to talk and still would love to be able to talk to someone like me, as a way to pool information. It's hard because my mom wigs a bit about me needing wine because her dad had drinking issues. However I'm not genetically related to her dad, and he died when I was too young to remember him taking out the nature and nurture factors completely. I really wish there was someone like me, who gets it, it would make things a bit easier because then I wouldn't have to justify myself all the time. Wine is my blood and without it I start to get sick (like cold sick) and I do need it. It's just hard when other people because of media just don't get it, I needs it's form of energy to be ok. It just would be good to not feel so isolated on it. So from that sense I really get and understand why it's good to have people to go to. That's why it's not good to isolate yourself as a group so that people feel free to go to whoever they want to and it would also help to negate the people who want the power for all the wrong reasons. Knowing peoples nature it's always good to be overly cautious. Smiley   
Logged

In vino veritas. Vero est vita.... In the process.
lono676767
Level 1 Contributor
*
Posts: 6


« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2010, 07:53:52 pm »

I've always preferred fruitbat myself...people think Im more accessible that way.
i get more babybats asking me questions, and less baybats asking other babybats questions in which they feel compelled to answer but, answer incorrectly.

-Lono
Logged
Taris
Level 3 Contributor
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 97


Feel free to contact me for discussions.


WWW
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2010, 11:28:35 pm »

The following is a question that was posed for group discussion at TWILIGHT II in Atlanta, GA this past March 2008.  I'd like to continue the discussion here on the AVA forum to gather everyone's opinion and input on the particular subject.  Please answer the question (all parts) below and offer your perspective!


Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?

Discussion: 
What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?  What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?

Honestly, In my time within the community I have seen a lot of stress placed on titles. Hell I've been with two physical "families" before and have never really attempted to figure out where I would be on the "rank" list. People focus too much on gaining it in my opinion and not the actually seeking of knowledge and helping others around them who need help in their seeking.

I have spoken with many "elders" or "Mor Roii" as some would call them and left the conversation feeling wanting in most cases. They are supposed to be pillars of the community and thus there to help out those of the community. I find that a lot separate themselves from most of the rest of the community through families or households or whatever you would call them and the community as a whole would suffer in some cases from that.

I think it is a essential part of the community that we have those we can look to as "elders" but the naming of it does not matter much to me. I have people I would go to to discuss things that I have difficulties with, or well used to since I have left the city, and those who would come to me for discussion. Its hard when there is no way to point out who has knowledge or who would be one of the people those in the community would go to for this. Even if that person wouldnt know how to help them or never experienced the topic as of yet they would know someone who might and guide you to them. They arent the know all of the communities but simply those who would have had spent years seeking knowledge.

There are people that have a lot of knowledge on energy working and may not have much knowledge on astral travel. Just as there will be those experienced with astral travel that dont have experience with healing. Its all a matter of what one person has worked with over time but it doesn't mean they will have all the answers, noone does. Simply having someone there through what you would work on spiritually or even someone there to go to when you have issues from "dayside" or mundane living. If you went into the whole of the hierarchy of the scene it would be a lot of segmenting and dividing of everyone into their respective groups. 

When it comes to how people in my neck of the woods would determine it. I have to say that one of the heads of family I was with prior to moving (and the drama) had a story about his court meeting regarding the granting of his "Eldership". The questions they asked were simply WHO do you know? Where have you met them? His reputation with those at said clubs and events. Not so much the thought of what does he know and how many years has he been seeking what he has learned or still learning. How he could be of help to the community and what he could be of help with.

I think those with the knowledge and "time" in the community should be given some respect if they give an attitude deserving of it. I think those that hide from the community at large not wanting to deal with those who would question, ridicule, and generally cause drama should be respected though. Its understandable not wanting to be involved with that portion of the community and hard to avoid. Hm i honestly don't know if there would be a way to reform the hierarchy to help with bringing those with knowledge and ability to help teach and support those younger within the community (Not necessarily in age but in time spent seeking) and also allow those same persons to learn from them in turn as a new mind will bring new ideas, thoughts, and pearls of knowledge themselves.

Hm i think i rambled on a bit longer than I expected to lol. Simply said we need "Pillars of the community" not to make up the community but to help support it and help it grow and keep strong.
Logged

Going back into the shadows again. Hope those within the community can solve what needs to be solved and those new to it can handle it or run while ya can lol.

Back somewhat but still determining if things are fixed >.> XD Can contact me via PM for discussion or hit me up on facebook.
Soulshroude
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 104


A whisper in the wind, heard in the dead of night


« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2010, 05:24:19 pm »

Eldership:  One who has governed themselves accordingly and has acted with respect and proper ediquette to be adequettely liked above many others of the same merit.

This is a tough subject, yes.  I have seen many who were self proclaimed elders come and go.  This is only natural.  Hell, I remember when my cities (NOLA) was filled with ten to 20 self proclaimed elders.  Finally a couple of respected members put a stop to it by declaring "if anyone calls themselves elders one more time, they can kiss my ass."  This was taken half serious and half sarcastically.  But by the time most of those self proclaimed elders realized that it was taken into a decently serious direction, they backed off a bit.  Those who know they are elders don't say it outright, but know they are respected by their cities community and of course if their reputation online preceeds them, then online as well.  Eldership should not be a title, nor a declaration.  It should be an ediquetted way of greeting someone with more education, knowledge and or common sense then others in the community lack.  They should be there to mentor the "baby bats" (as Zaar words it).  Not to manipulate them into thinking they are being "awakened" (a word that holds little meaning for me), but to help them out through their travels in our community.

Just my two cents.
Logged

"Those of whom hath commited a fault, shall be given the chance to redeem themselves." ~Faust~

"To labor under a dilusion of grandeur will, as time allows.. corrupt." ~Soulshroude~
paindancer
Level 5 Contributor
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 955



« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2010, 06:42:40 pm »

Of similar mind here.

Titles are just words, and are no substitute for character.
Logged

Paindancer
Advocating sensible vampirism since 2006
lono676767
Level 1 Contributor
*
Posts: 6


« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2010, 09:43:19 pm »

to soulshroude (Actually i thought i stole the term baby-bats from Evan Christopher  Tongue )

-L
Logged
deacongray
Level 3 Contributor
***
Posts: 67



« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2010, 09:53:07 am »

Anyone can claim to be an elder, the ones who really are Elders represent themselves through action and word, the title meaning very little. Real Elders in this community are known to be elders and respected as such by those who feel it appropreate. If someone demends Elder respect...they most likely aren't elders.
Logged
RKCoon
*
Level 5 Contributor
*
Gender: Male
Posts: 460



« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2010, 09:02:11 pm »

Examples of which can be seen on Merts FB.  Grin
Logged

Automotive Necromancer
Nightshade
Level 2 Contributor
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 25



WWW
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2011, 12:18:50 am »

I do believe that elders are those of our kind that have been here on this world the longest. That doesn't necessarily mean just by age, but also through experience. I believe that the title is like a medal of recognition to show others that are just coming up who to go to for answers, and who they should respect because of the paths they have already went down. There is always a good and a bad to certain things, but I think that it would be based on the particular individual. If someone with a lot of experience and has been awakened for a long time decides to be generous and help any of us in need then it can be a good thing because we can learn from them, but if they choose to shun the newly awakened seeing them as lower class simply because of their time and experience then it could create many problems. I think it should be a certain form of order because Elders have earned their status, and they can guide through the transition of a newly awakened. If some feel they shouldn't be approached directly it could be that they have too many pressing matters to be side tracked and thrown off. It's like a military chain of command, it's not to degrade any one, but to insure that we know what status we should work towards, and what status to look to for help and guidance. Whether they have the label or not does not matter, there will still be those of us that have been here longer and that has more experience than others, and sooner or later it will be recognized, why not just put it out up front instead of wondering who to go to. The only question from there is, how and who decides what Elder status is...

Yes I am looking for answers and don't know who to turn to. I need someone like a mentor, so to say, in this area that can help me to learn. It seems as though I was awakened and left to figure it out on my own, and I dont know what to do.
Logged

NightShade
Facebook: You can find me under Brandi LaMere
Yahoo Messenger: Shorty0062000
Oblivionburns
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Female
Posts: 119



« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2011, 12:15:41 pm »

This isn't in direct reply to anything but the article.

I don't do pecking order.  We're all equal.
Respect must always be earned.
Every awakening is an individual experience.

I don't think having a mentor would have helped me personally at all, as then I'd have had pre-concieved notions about labeling my specific needs & methods of satisfying them.  That said, I guess sometimes people want to have another person to help them construct guidelines.  This may be necessary for some, I understand.  When left to my own devices I was able to learn what I should or should not do by experimentation & find effective methods for the different things I was able to do or experience.

I've never been big on structure, though!  Anyone who IS an "Elder" would never use the term themselves IMHO.  They simply ARE respected not because they demand it, but because they command respect automatically from those around them!  Power-grabbers & self-proclaimed teachers are not Edlers.
Logged

Shadow hide you, moon watch over you, night cloak you, peace keep you.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Copyright 2005-2012 | Atlanta Vampire Alliance | All Rights Reserved
Theme By Nesianstyles | Buttons By Andrea | Modified By Merticus