<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>>
<Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community
<Merticus> Public Meeting - June 16, 2010
<Merticus> I. Meeting Information
<Merticus> Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2010. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
<Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
<Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
<Merticus> II. Background & Introduction
<Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006.
<Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to
<Merticus> establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
<Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
<Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
<Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at:
http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
<Merticus> III. Discussion
<Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question.
<Merticus> All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
<Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions:
<Merticus> a. The Psychological Stability Of Vampires & Those Who Participate In The Vampire Community - A Three-Part Question: (1) Under what circumstances is it appropriate to directly question the mental health of an individual?
<Merticus> (2) How can one best connect individuals who ask for assistance or demonstrate a blatant need (talk of or threaten suicide, self-harm, erratic behavior, et. al.) with resources and qualified mental health officials? (3) What responsibility and potential liability do individuals share when they are notified of behaviors that potentially could cause harm to oneself or others? <Belfazaar> The problem, as I see it, isn't the 'mental health' of community members, it is the enormous ego that several seem to sport and the fact that, do to these egos, they have to create unnecessary drama for those of us trying to do the right thing. Like my work within my own community to create a homeless shelter, feed hungry/homeless people and provide a safe haven for our local community members… Besides... who is truly qualified among us to point fingers at any other member's "mental health"?
<Belfazaar> Who is to say who is a mental case and who isn't, especially within a community as fractured and factitious as ours? No one has even bothered to discuss what definition of vampirism the community should use, let alone, what truly qualifies as a vampire and what doesn't. We still have more details that need to be decided long before we can touch subjects like "how to approach a nutburger to tell them to seek professional guidance.
<CorvisNocturnum> (1) Like in any case when someone you care about exhibits erratic or frightening behavior, it is important to address it as soon as possible, especially if it is noticed by multiple individuals around the same time. When it maybe a suicidal, cutter (beyond the safe feeding practices) or repeated behavior that is totally out of character for them, approach them with concern in an manner appropriate for the situation, and with compassion.
<CorvisNocturnum> (2) By checking with local resources in getting help at mental health centers, drug rehabs, and I suggest contacting Shadow Villanueva of Darkness Against Child Abuse he is very familiar with the issues that member of the our community face. He was extremely helpful in my first book when he mentioned how he personally feels about the concerns the various communities have in dealing with the public, and normal psychotherapists.
<CorvisNocturnum> (3) Organizations are becoming increasingly intolerant of threats and other violent, abusive behaviors in the workplace - I discovered some facts in class that might help:
<CorvisNocturnum> Know the Warning Signs of Potentially Violent Individuals
<CorvisNocturnum> There is no exact method of predicting when a person will become violent. However, there are some behaviors and warning signs that are characteristic of people who are having problems. A person may display one or more of these warning signs before he or she becomes violent.
<CorvisNocturnum> However, an individual may display one of more of the signs and never become violent. A display of these signs should trigger concern because people who are experiencing problems frequently exhibit them:
<CorvisNocturnum> Irrational beliefs and ideas
<CorvisNocturnum> Verbal, nonverbal or written threats or intimidation
<CorvisNocturnum> Fascination with weaponry and/or acts of violence
<CorvisNocturnum> Expressions of a plan to hurt himself or others
<CorvisNocturnum> Externalization of blame
<CorvisNocturnum> Unrequited romantic obsession
<CorvisNocturnum> Taking up much of supervisor’s time with behavior or performance problems
<CorvisNocturnum> Fear reaction among coworkers (pay attention to how people react.)
<Merticus> You mean we don’t all need to be in the care of mental health professionals because we believe ourselves to be “real vampires”? <sarcasm> On a more serious note, I know there’s something outside the norm when I’ve had authorities perform welfare checks twice since late last year on persons in the vampire community who either threatened or were strongly suspected of attempting to commit suicide.
<Merticus> I believe there’s a growing divide between those who self-identify as real vampires who also display relatively stable mental health and those who suffer from some form of debilitating mental impairment. I’ve read more than a few accounts by vampires who’ve been prescribed medications and outright refuse to take them.
<Merticus> I’ve then witnessed these same individuals go through stints of irrationality acted out on various fora and in groups, only to then disappear for months at a time and then repeat the cycle.
<Merticus> This proliferation of aberrant behavior isn’t just limited to suicide. Faking one’s death, inventing new identities you genuinely believe are an extension of yourself (whether due to Dissociative Identity Disorder or not), constantly vying for the sympathies of others, and other more erratic or rapidly-cycling mood swings aren’t signs of someone who’s well adjusted.
<Merticus> Almost everyone goes through depression, anxiety, and other relatively minor snags along the journey of life -- this is normal and doesn’t concern me. It’s the extreme cases and their visible social impact on others that capture my attention and focus. Granted we’re vampires and our own special snowflake of peculiar idiosyncrasies but this doesn’t give us carte blanche to turn a blind eye to uncomfortable truths.
<Merticus> I strongly contend that our unwritten policy or belief of absolute inclusionism and unilateral tolerance of verbal responses or actions is counterproductive to the security, privacy, and overall peaceable functioning of the vampire community.
<Merticus> Moreover, I think we all need to step back and evaluate what effect exposure to these individuals is having on the psyche of those among us who aren’t trapped by the instability of our own minds. I don’t meant to sound cold by saying this, but if we allow ourselves to be surrounded by broken individuals while not serving the role of lending them assistance or helping to pull them
<Merticus> out of their severe depression, chronic anxiety, suicidal thoughts, or other low points in their lives, then we’re reinforcing the acceptance of their behaviors. Tragically, many of these people will refuse advice that they need counseling or at minimum an evaluation by a qualified mental health professional (not fellow lay vampires).
<Merticus> I don’t believe we can nor should interfere in the lives of others past making the suggestions for them to explore treatment options or to notify authorities in extreme cases of imminent threat to personal safety. Likewise, threats of harm against others should be taken seriously and reported. Evidence should also be preserved in case an incident reaches the level of physical altercation or arrest.
<Merticus> Saying and doing nothing is tantamount to enabling someone you know who needs help to live in a state of perpetual delusion for five, seven, or even ten years. If you’re close to them and they’re willing to listen then at least attempt to steer them in the right direction towards professional help.
<Isealdor> I think a lot depends on what is meant by "questioning" the mental heath of someone. If you see signs of some mental instability, I tend to opt toward a moderately direct approach and talk to the person about it.
<Isealdor> As for connecting people with help if they need it, there are any number of hotlines and crisis centers, etc, people can be referred to.
<AcrophobicPixie> I agree with Isealdor. I mean, there are the blatant "OMG, I'mma cut myself" people who definitely need to be pulled aside and talked to, but we can't really judge a person's mental state by what they type in a forum post or chat room.
<MistressMikyla> I agree with Isealdor, too - some people are obviously beyond the 'crazy' you tend to take for granted online and might need help.
<Isealdor> Liability wise... if you have someone saying they just swallowed a bottle of pills (and being at least moderately serious about it), and you have enough information to contact authorities, I'd say there's an ethical obligation at the least. The legalities on that are a bit sketchy, but if it's a matter of saving someone's life or not, I'd say it doesn’t much matter if they're going to be mad at you for it later.
<Merticus> Has anyone ever encountered anyone who they think would clearly be classified as "insane" within the vampire community?
<Isealdor> Less immediate threat of harm to themselves or someone else, maybe opt toward encouraging them to seek help
<ThePinkLady> Mental health, only in person. I think if someone poses a threat to you or your community, you have a right to question it.
<Isealdor> @Merticus: If going with the definition of insane being major mental illness, yes.
<MistressMikyla> There could definitely be a liability issue - if you're on chat and something happens to them, the police or families tend to do a lot of digging into online activities and might feel you're responsible for not reporting something.
<Vyrdolak> This is a problem in society as a whole, not just the vampire community.
<AcrophobicPixie> I honestly don't know. I can't really tell via the internet on if someone is insane or not. All of the ones I've met in person had their quirks, but nothing really to write home about.
<MistressMikyla> @Merticus: Do you mean beyond the obvious of “JS”?
<Vyrdolak> A major stumbling block in many "alternative" subcultures is a paranoia about being "judged"
<ThePinkLady> @Mikyla: As far as the vampirism e-list goes, the moderators keep tabs on drama queens to figure out whether or not it's a cry for attention or signs of a larger problem.
<ThePinkLady> Most of the time it's attention.
<Lono> With this community there’s various levels of crazy.... but I assume your talking about batshit crazy or dangerous to oneself and others crazy, as opposed to fruitbat crazy.
<Vyrdolak> People set aside their own good sense because they don't want to "judge" others -- and it's really about *them* not wanting to be judged.
<Vyrdolak> "Attention" isn't an automatic dismissal the way it's treated.
<Vyrdolak> People who "want attention" generally need something legitimate.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: Like... attention. Some people just want others to notice them and wire themselves weirdly to soak up lots of it.
<ThePinkLady> Metaphors. I overuse them.
<Isealdor> I guess I look at the online reporting thing with keeping in mind the cases of like the one kid in the news a while back who killed himself over several hours on a live video stream, with dozens of people watching, and no one reported a thing.
<Isealdor> It's a fine line of being skeptic and not jumping every time someone cries wolf vs. taking things seriously when they need to be.
<MistressMikyla> I had interactions with someone I don't consider to be mentally stable in the past, but I don't know if I would say she was a danger to anyone but herself - she just did a lot of lying.
<Vyrdolak> Far more avoidable tragedy happens because people refuse to get involved or take the situation seriously, than is over-reacted to.
<Merticus> Who here has been personally made aware of someone who have tried to harm themselves, talked of harming others, etc?
<Isealdor> @Merticus: Yes, several actually.
<MistressMikyla> I have not, Merticus.
<LucienWolfe> I haven't.
<AcrophobicPixie> I haven't.
<Merticus> How did you handle or discuss such matters with them?
<Isealdor> @Merticus: A mixture of encouraging them to seek professional help and being there and supportive for them to have healthier outlets.
<Lono> I have and have taken several steps in the past to prevent individuals from harming themselves or others.
<ThePinkLady> I've been around cutters, mostly transsexuals who get a lot of grief.
<ThePinkLady> @Merticus: I see the question as less clinical insanity, more clinical depression/hysteria.
<LucienWolfe> I have to agree with ThePinkLady.
<ThePinkLady> But you don't know for certain online.
<LucienWolfe> Unless there is a professional here, none of us has the ability to presume.
<Vyrdolak> I really bristle when I hear that, "oh, they just want attention" crap.
<Vyrdolak> A lot of people are dead because of that attitude and it's inexcusable.
<Vyrdolak> You actually can't overreact to people who are crying out for help.
<Vyrdolak> If they're BSing, getting a huge reaction and all the mess than ensues teaches them a real lesson.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: In person, I'll bend over backwards to help someone.
<ThePinkLady> On the internet... skeptical.
<Isealdor> @Vyrdolak: I have to agree to an extent... if it's an attention ploy, it's because something else is missing in their life and they feel a strong enough lack of attention that they act out. Most of that sort, I've found, will turn around if they're given positive attention and learn they get more and better attention for good rather than bad things.
<Lono> Yes, but when a person anonymously says I just downed a bottle of medications it’s an obvious cry for help... but the fact of the matter is if they don’t get the help or you shrug it off as attention/energy seeking, and the person dies wouldn’t you feel somewhat responsible?
<LucienWolfe> I agree that many people do want attention, however, those who seriously seek help will take suggestions.
<LucienWolfe> If it is someone in my community, there is a difference.
<Vyrdolak> One problem that American society doesn't have is people caring too much about their neighbors :-p
<Vyrdolak> We're all just too happy to let everyone else croak because "it's not our problem".
<Vyrdolak> And it's a lot worse in alternative communities because they don't want other people telling them what to do.
<Lono> My bad Vyrdolak... we're on the same wavelength.
<ThePinkLady> Offline, I'm there. Online, I see way too many people living out some sort of weird or sick death fantasy.
<ThePinkLady> What's the word for it? Munchausen's syndrome?
<ThePinkLady> Getting attention because someone else suffers?
<AcrophobicPixie> Munchausen's By Proxy or something like that.
<Vyrdolak> Munchausen's is another trendy diagnosis du jour.
<Isealdor> Münchausen's is faking or exaggerating illness for attention... and gets tossed around a lot term-wise compliments of the television show House, I think. It's one where it has to be fairly severe to be diagnosed--most kids logging into a forum saying they're going to kill themselves wouldn’t qualify ;)
<Merticus> There have been quite a number of individuals who have reported being clinically depressed in the vampire community... for that matter many individuals are depressed at some point in their lives to a clinical or acute degree.
<Isealdor> I'm personally less likely to take someone seriously if I don’t know anything about them, they just pop in one of the chats and say they downed a bottle of pills, vs. if it's a site regular saying they're having problems... kind of a given.
<ThePinkLady> Only the person who suffers is your online avatar?
<ThePinkLady> Because you only know what the person provides.
<Vyrdolak> If it's impossible to gauge the validity of something online, then why assume there's nothing to it?
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: I agree.
<MistressMikyla> @Vyrdolak: Some might assume on the side of nothing because they've been burned too many times by the same issue in the past.
<AcrophobicPixie> It all depends on the situation, I guess. I mean, you're better able to gauge the severity of the situation if the person is a regular to your site/chatroom. But *shrugs*
<Vyrdolak> @Mikyla: The trouble is, that laypeople don't understand how to evaluate situations because they haven't been trained.
<LucienWolfe> Those who we know would be more likely to approach us in private than to act out in an open chat.
<LucienWolfe> We are all lay people here, right?
<Vyrdolak> Well, I'm a certified counselor and I have a Masters degree in pastoral counseling, so I'm not quite a lay person.
<Vyrdolak> And there's an instinct you get for it, too.
<Vyrdolak> That's why I get so testy about this topic.
<Lono> I've got a medical license... but not in psychology.
<Merticus> Has anyone here received reports of vampires harming animals (aside from hunting) to seek sources of blood or for "fun"?
<Isealdor> @Merticus: Only a couple.
<ThePinkLady> @Merticus: The few times I have on the e-list, I've reported it to Yahoo.
<AcrophobicPixie> @Merticus: I've not heard of anyone doing that.
<ThePinkLady> The one time I remember clearly was someone who was already pushing buttons by saying he stalked several people.
<LucienWolfe> Wonderful, Vyrdolak. In a professional environment, would you not first have an evaluation face to face before making "diagnosis"?
<Vyrdolak> In some states, you don't need a specifically psych/med degree to be a "mandated reporter" and required to have some training.
<Vyrdolak> Intervention is not diagnosis. I never "diagnose".
<Isealdor> @Lucien: I don’t think any of us are really saying trying to diagnose someone.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: I understand, I was trying to determine the process of evaluation, etc.
<ThePinkLady> I'm jaded because I see a lot of it as attention-seeking. I'm used to an online world where people can be anything.
<LucienWolfe> Perhaps those who are qualified could start a resource website?
<Vyrdolak> We're talking about intervention and that's a whole topic in and of itself, a complete skill set.
<Merticus> While there are some individuals in the community who qualify as mental health professionals, do you think there are enough available resources or resources those who suffer from mental illness would be comfortable contacting to discuss personal matters?
<LucienWolfe> @Merticus: No
<Isealdor> @Merticus: No, there's actually very few community-based resources (lists, links, etc), I think.
<Lono> In Florida for example... a person must present a danger to themselves or others and they can be "Baker Acted".
<ThePinkLady> @Lono: I remember that.
<ThePinkLady> I know SphynxCatVP runs the support page. Would it be worth compiling a list of links or signs for an article?
<Vyrdolak> The community could use some good solid guidelines for when and how to properly intervene, what's a red flag and worth taking seriously, etc.
<Vyrdolak> And a database of resources for referring people for help, if possible.
<Isealdor> I have an article about cutting that's up a few places, but right now I don’t have outside resource links included in it.
<AcrophobicPixie> *nod*
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: Any suggestions on a place to start with that?
<ThePinkLady> I don't mean to be facetious. I've cracked open my library's and my old college's database.
<Vyrdolak> Well, there are online resources -- I could see what I could put together.
<Lono> I really like Ravena’s article (which is on my website as well) about Enabling, it does have the resources and links available for suicide, abuse, etc. and 1-800 numbers.
<Isealdor> What about less common things, too? Like cutting, suicide risk, and depression get talked about a lot... but what about relationship abuse, other mental illnesses, etc?
<Isealdor> The potential of emotional abuse in vampire/donor relationships, for example, should probably be talked about more, too.
<LadyOnyx> I am currently training for ‘I'm Alive’, the first online chat based hotline.
<LadyOnyx> Instead of calling they will talk to counselors via chat.
<Vyrdolak> @LadyOnyx that sounds like a great idea.
<LadyOnyx> Yes, I'm excited about it, it should launch at the end of the year.
<Merticus> @LadyOnyx: Do you have a link for that program handy?
<LadyOnyx>
http://www.pickupthephone.org/IMAlive/home.php <LadyOnyx> Sponsored by To Write Love on Her Arms and the Kristen Brooks Hope Center.
<Merticus> Thank you.
<Lono> The difficulty is always... you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t always make them drink... to use an old euphemism.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: Relationship issues is a good one. I have had people approach me about abuse.
<ThePinkLady> @Lono: Having the resources readily available would help at least someone, I think.
<Vyrdolak> Well, exactly @Lono, but if people are talking online about the pain they're in, presumably they're hoping for help.
<Lono> Thats very true Vyrdolak.
<AcrophobicPixie> @Isealdor: That's when people call me in, apparently. I can find local battered women's shelters for people in a heart beat, and talking to a person who escaped an abusive relationship is often one of the best ways to get out of one.
<Isealdor> @Pixie: Would you mind people sending someone to talk to you, if they want, as someone who's "been there"?
<AcrophobicPixie> I don't mind.
<Merticus> Do any of you find that your donor(s) or donors you are aware of suffer from diagnosed mental health conditions to a greater degree than the vampires you know? Or are you able to make such a determination?
<LadyOnyx> @Merticus: Well you know that I am always prescreening donor's, and I can say that on average, donors have no more mental health conditions than many vampires I know.
<Vyrdolak> I've actually noticed that donors seem to be more balanced than many vamps!
<ThePinkLady> The only thing I can think of is emotional abuse from the D/s sort of relationship.
<ThePinkLady> But there's so much crossover between that community and this one.
<AcrophobicPixie> @Vyrdolak: That's cause we're cool like that :P
<Merticus> Does anyone have anything else to add to parts 1 - 3?
<Merticus> Particular instances (without naming of names), liability concerns, and resources they’re aware of, etc?
<LadyOnyx> As far as liability, are we speaking legality of knowing or liability morally, community wise, etc?
<Merticus> Both
<Vyrdolak> I think legal liability is a bullet the community has dodged many times and probably can't, indefinitely.
<Merticus> Primarily the legal liability of being told something and your obligation (or not) to report it to law enforcement authorities or mental health professionals, etc.
<LadyOnyx> Legally, if you know that someone is a danger to themselves or others, it is a state by state matter.
<Isealdor> The legalities online are still being debated heavily in courts. Offline, they're a bit more defined and vary from place to place.
<LadyOnyx> In Florida, for instance, the good Samaritan law does not require you to intervene at all.
<LadyOnyx> However... if you know someone plans to do harm to another and you do nothing, then you can face accessory charges in some states.
<LadyOnyx> As well as all kinds of civil lawsuits.
<Vyrdolak> But civil lawsuits can be filed without legal background for them.
<Lono> For legal liability... we look to the most infamous of all vampire websites it seems... vampirefreaks.com. How have they avoided it all this time?
<Vyrdolak> Anyone can be sued anytime for any thing -- and the cases we've seen in the last couple of years, I'm amazed there hasn't been some huge litigation.
* Isealdor nods* There are duty to rescue laws, etc.
<LadyOnyx> Not in every location Isealdor.
<Isealdor> Not everywhere, no, and they're not usually enforced, but they could be.
<Vyrdolak> Isn't vampirefreaks based in Canada?
<Merticus> No, New York City, NY to my knowledge - at least that’s where Jet lives.
<LadyOnyx> I would say that if it is the case of someone you have knowledge of, and know beyond a reasonable doubt that they may harm themselves or others then you have a responsibility to EVERYONE to notify someone.
<LadyOnyx> Whether that be a family member, a community member in a position to help, or authorities.
<Lono> So is my server...but it hasn’t stopped me from monitoring my members... and trying to make sure my members are kept safe.
<Vyrdolak> The more that groups establish a presence in the "mundane" world, the more likely they are to be lawsuit targets.
<Vyrdolak> Also, maybe we need to recognize limits to confidentiality when harm or self-harm is an issue.
<Vyrdolak> "Silence = death" and the idea from child abuse survivors that "there are no secrets" because secrets protect the abuser.
<Lono> The administrators on my forum know... to wake me no matter what time, if they have a member even "kidding" about committing suicide.
<LadyOnyx> Given that my mentor....decided to leave of his own accord, I will say that most people are not out for attention when speaking on suicide, too often though it goes unnoticed.
<Vyrdolak> @LadyOnyx: That's very true, and often "jokes" are a way of "testing the waters".
<LadyOnyx> Exactly @Vyrdolak.
<Vyrdolak> If everyone blows off the "jokes" the suicidal person decides that proves no one gives a damn.
<Merticus> Another slippery slope is the age requirements on forum and group memberships.
<LadyOnyx> Well, I'll throw myself to the gauntlet on this one, I am a moderator and admin for Sang/Psy Space and we are all ages.
<LadyOnyx> Although, the new layout has specified areas for different age groups.
<ThePinkLady> @Merticus: I always understood age requirements to be responsibility waivers.
<ThePinkLady> If someone underage joins an overage website, they checked the box or whatever, and the sites waives responsibility.
<ThePinkLady> Or am I wrong?
<Isealdor> @PinkLady: Only if the staff isn’t made aware of the false age.
<Isealdor> There has to be "reasonable restriction" for underage (a warning, posted rules prior to registering, etc.) to be able to fight liability.
<Merticus> How many of you here restrict the age of your forum/site/etc. members to a certain age and how many of you do not?
<LucienWolfe> I do.
<Vyrdolak> I have never been willing to place age restrictions, but that means I have to manage content carefully.
<Isealdor> @Merticus: We're 13+ on vampires.nu, with a couple sections with higher age requirements.
<AcrophobicPixie> We restrict posting of vamp/donor ads to 18, and I think the script we use restricts forum access if you're under 13.
<ThePinkLady> The Yahoo group is 17+, I think. There may be underage people still on it.
<LadyOnyx> Sang/Psy does not.
<LadyOnyx> I restrict on my House page and membership.
<Merticus> The AVA Forum is 18+, House AVA is 21+. Those wishing to meet us offline may be so through the Meetup.com group provided they are 18 years of age or older but in order to regularly socialize or be a part of official House functions you must be 21+ (no exceptions).
<Lono> I do... but there has been a lot of debate as to whether to change the age requirements... and a lot of opposition... which is why I have age requirements for hidden forums containing more mature topics.
<ThePinkLady> @Isealdor: We've done a don't ask, don't tell for a long time.
<ThePinkLady> I especially discourage people from posting their personal information or "where you at" type posts, due to legalities.
<Isealdor> @PinkLady: Don’t ask/don’t tell only goes so far... we do the 13+ to be in keeping with the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act in the Realm.
<AcrophobicPixie> My house is 21+, but when we formed, I was the only underage member, because of extenuating circumstances.
<Vyrdolak> Here's a question that I think is related to this issue:
<Vyrdolak> Do we care, I mean *really* care, about each other in this community?
<LucienWolfe> I believe some of us do.
<LucienWolfe> But obviously there is a lot of backstabbing.
<LucienWolfe> So not everyone cares.
<Vyrdolak> How much do you, personally, care about other people in the community -- not just your friends, but everyone?
<Vyrdolak> *Because* they're part of your community?
<Lono> I hope so... the effects of one group, affect the others.
<Merticus> Some of us care more about each other than others... as true for any "friend" groups.
<LucienWolfe> I care about all life.
<AcrophobicPixie> There's clickyness, but I do care about a majority of the vampire community.
<LucienWolfe> I have children, I understand depression/suicide on a personal level. I lost my brother.
<Vyrdolak> I think there's a lot of resistance to accepting people who don't precisely agree with oneself.
<LadyOnyx> @Vyrdolak: I would say that I have empathy for everyone in the community, but there are some that if they disappeared I would probably not notice.
<LadyOnyx> That is about as honest as I can be.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: Offline I do, but online, not as much as I probably should.
<Lono> Heck if a Temple of the Vampire (ToV) member or Aset Ka (AK) member said they were going to kill themselves I'd to the same for them as I'd do for one of my forum members, or local community members.
<LucienWolfe> @Lono: Why is it you would specifically name ToV or AK?
<Lono> Because I like them the least, and have been open about it.
<AcrophobicPixie> I'd probably do the same as Lono, because just because I think they've done something stupid, like join the ToV or AK, doesn't mean I should condone them to kill themselves.
<LadyOnyx> I care about those I have personal contact with, have met along the way, that have shown me the same respect I have given them, but to say I care about a vamp, I've never heard of or met, would be stretching it for me
<ThePinkLady> @LadyOnyx: Agreed.
<Vyrdolak> So, on what grounds is this a "community" at all if its members don't even have that basic tribal unity?
<LadyOnyx> @Vyrdolak: LOL... I keep asking that question for years... Where is this community exactly?
<LadyOnyx> I believe we are all tribal in our own localities.
<LadyOnyx> But as far as the far reaching OVC... I would say... not so much.
<Merticus> Some in the community would claim tribal unity and some would not... we're not universally cohesive.
<Merticus> I know speaking personally, I'd do more for those I know offline than online if they were in direct need.
<LadyOnyx> I can state that as well Merticus.
<LucienWolfe> It doesn't do good to chat about it. Do something!
<Isealdor> @Lucien: Such as? Suggestions of ideas of things that can be done?
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: As we have discussed privately, people talk a good game but they can't seem to get off high horses to actually work together to accomplish much.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: First we would need to step down to the same level and show one another respect.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: Then we would need to approach solutions on a mature level.
<LadyOnyx> Precisely, it is the merry-go-round.
<LadyOnyx> We go and never move to the train in the playground.
<AcrophobicPixie> The vampire community is very cliquish. To say the least.
<Vyrdolak> That's why this and all our other discussions just go round and round and round and round.
<Isealdor> @Lucien: Then put out some suggestions and see if it'll change? People can't "do" the things others want to see happen if they aren’t voiced.
<AcrophobicPixie> we're worse than the people in the "Mean Girls" movie.
<Isealdor> @Pixie: Amen to that.
<LadyOnyx> @Vyrdolak: I can also say, I have every vampire’s phone number who has ever given it to me.
<LadyOnyx> I try to keep in touch a few times a year.
<LadyOnyx> More often than not, I get a text saying... who is this?
<LadyOnyx> So… at what point do I say, what is the point?
<AcrophobicPixie> Well, I have a different point of view than most of you, since for most of the "drama" I'm on the sidelines, looking in.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: Ok… first, as a whole, personal opinions aside, what is it we are willing to do? Can we all agree to post Help information on our community websites?
<Vyrdolak> Prominently placed Help information would be good.
<LadyOnyx> I am a certified spiritual counselor, I am also currently obtaining my masters in clinical psychology.. I will help anyone who comes my way.
<Isealdor> @Lucien: I could go for that...especially if we could compile some sort of list anyone who wants to can post everywhere.
<LucienWolfe> @Isealdor: Secondly, since we don't have Vampire specific organizations, can we not simply create a list of common organizations to give to those seeking help?
<LucienWolfe> It would be a common list. Anybody with a phone book or Internet access can locate the info -- we just post it.
<Merticus> Could we compile such a list of resources and also host it on the VVC Public Web Site? And those who wish to do so on their own personal websites could do the same?
<LucienWolfe> @Merticus: Yes.
<LadyOnyx> Posting help, talking, texting, chatting, etc.
<AcrophobicPixie> LadyOnyx - if I get something I can't handle, can I hand that person to you?
<LadyOnyx> Certainly Pixie.
<LadyOnyx> My phone is never off, and my computer is always up.
<AcrophobicPixie> *nod*
<AcrophobicPixie> And if you ever need to have someone talk to a person who got out of a DA relationship, my phone's always on.
<Merticus> Not everyone in the community is going to get along... it's a degree of numbers and gradual changing of opinions on a case by case basis. There will always be inherent bias against some groups and individuals unfortunately. This can sometimes be mitigated by teaching newcomers to our community to be more aware of one another.
<LadyOnyx> @Merticus: I thought we made up ;-P
<Merticus> Funny ;-P You know you’re on my good list.
<LucienWolfe> @Merticus: I now understand that, and I have come to accept that not everyone will agree or get along. I image I was naive ;)
<Isealdor> IMO... this isn’t about "getting along", this is about general response to people being in a dangerous situation. I don’t have to get along with someone to not want them to go on a shooting spree because they snapped because they never got psych care they needed.
<Vyrdolak> I think that one big quantum leap this community needs to make is to push past the personal to the larger priorities.
<LadyOnyx> I think that it doesn't matter if we "get along" or even "agree", I think it is more about the ability to act as ADULTS and accept one another's differences, and respect what those differences.
<Vyrdolak> You can care about what happens to someone without being willing to share an apartment with them.
<LucienWolfe> @Vyrdolak: I totally agree!
<Lono> What are the larger priorities?
<Lono> Let’s get those out in the open.
<Isealdor> @Lono: I'd say one is/should be encouraging proper channel resources and discouraging catering toward enabling of problems.
<Isealdor> Or two things, rather.
<Lono> How would you define enabling of problems Isealdor?
<Isealdor> @Lono: Probably the best explanation of that re: the community is Ravena's enabling article:
http://sphynxcatvp.nocturna.org/articles/rav-enablingvc.html <Isealdor> Basically, the "standing by and not saying/doing anything" is a form of enabling.
<LadyOnyx> @Isealdor: So is using triggering language or sharing too much of a personal story to someone, that may only trigger them into action rather than pointing them towards help.
<Isealdor> @LadyOnyx: Depending on the story, true.
<Vyrdolak> @LadyOnyx: Very true, although that can be harder to parse out and address.
<LadyOnyx> @Vyrdolak: Agreed.
<LadyOnyx> So, as a recap, I believe the consensus was organizing a "get help" list, be open and aware of potential triggers in others, and notify accordingly? Did I miss anything?
<Lono> I think you’re dead on.
<Vyrdolak> Sounds right.
<AcrophobicPixie> Sounds good to me.
<Merticus> That's the long and short of it.
<Merticus> Ok, are we ready for topic B?
<Lono> Yes
<LadyOnyx> Mais oui
<Isealdor> Ja
<AcrophobicPixie> Yes
<LucienWolfe> Yes