<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>>
<Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community
<Merticus> Public Meeting - December 20, 2009
<Merticus> Discussion Agenda:
<Merticus> I. Meeting Info & Introductions
<Merticus> Welcome to the third public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2009. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
<Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
<Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
<Merticus> II. Background & Introduction
<Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006.
<Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to
<Merticus> establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
<Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
<Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
<Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at:
http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
<Merticus> III. Discussion
<Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question.
<Merticus> All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
<Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions:
<Merticus> a. Community Availability To Newcomers & Seekers: What steps can we take to ensure newcomers to the vampire community find accurate information along with local offline or online safe haven communities? <ShadowMind> One of the steps we can take is to make sure that the online communities that we feel have been vetted appropriately and have maintained a high level of respectability and responsibility remains at a level of fairly high visibility. This being the case, newcomers are more likely to make their way to these sites and garner a good grounding.
<ShadowMind> These sites, in turn, can have articles, lists of publications, and other resources that will also be useful for newcomers to absorb. While I do not believe in spoon feeding and do not wish to assume that we or any other singular site has all of the answers, by creating a well rounded base, newcomers are able to move and shape their own minds.
<ShadowMind> Realistically, the majority of the newcomers come through in an online fashion, at least from my general view. It is far easier to become part of the community through the use of technology than it is in person. Thus, I think the strengthening of the online presence should be first.
<ShadowMind> As far as the offline sources, that information can also be held within the online communities as far as physical place that can be attended, but, perhaps, some sort of structure should be in place to make sure that those that get that information are not dangerous individuals. Not having been a part or spoken with a great deal of members who have a physical presence does not allow me to speak as eloquently to this point.
<CorvisNocturnum> A widely distributed and copied listing of sites such as Larae’s Darkness Embraced, Lono’s, Sangi’s, SphynxCat, AVA, etc. on a master directory of safe havens would be a first step. All sites committed to the cause paste each others banners; links etc. to make it easier for all new people to be able to encounter the sites we all agree are open to the cause of safety.
<CorvisNocturnum> In this way there is no favoritism, everyone is included and it makes it simple for someone searching to realize the common reoccurring theme is about unity, safety, and community. The only choice then is as always left to the individual to choose which place or several) they feel at home in.
<Sanguinarius> We could make a printed booklet with urls/names/descriptions of sites of information.
<Vyrdolak> Even thoughtful, experienced old-timers in the VC disagree on what "accurate information" IS.
<Vyrdolak> We can't "make accurate information available" without some consensus on what's "accurate".
<Vyrdolak> And history suggests that we're just NEVER going to do that.
<Vyrdolak> Plus, people disagree about which offline groups are/are not "safe" or reputable.
<Vyrdolak> This exact issue has monkey-wrenched most of our projects!
<Zero> When we say "newcomers," what does that mean? People on Google? Folks hanging around clubs?
<Merticus> Newly awakened vampires or those who have located the "community" for the first time.
<ThePinkLady> I also think it would be helpful to come up with a list of reasons why such places are considered newbie-friendly.
<Lono> True.
<CorvisNocturnum> People will always disagree.
<CorvisNocturnum> I like Xeurika’s saying “dedicated spot or line of communication that people could go to would be very valuable.”
<Vyrdolak> Even if we always talk about each other respectfully, which isn't a given.
<Vyrdolak> Newcomers who go to 3 different sites will get 3 versions of "what vampires are".
<Vyrdolak> And they'll stick with the one that most flatters them or appeals to them.
<Vyrdolak> People looking for community don't care about "accurate information," they care about being accepted.
<Vyrdolak> They'll take recommendations from groups/leaders who make them feel good about themselves.
<Vyrdolak> And disregard the recommendations/info from groups/leaders they don't like.
<ThePinkLady> My elist--let me show you it. It's a shark tank. We brook no bullshit. It's not the friendliest place for newbies. But IMO Sangi's site is the same way... but people have more patience "unlearning" newbies.
<ThePinkLady> And I'm agreeing with Vyrdolak even if I don't like the truth she says.
<CorvisNocturnum> People will always make their choice based off what works best for themselves.
<Zero> That's one of the first things I'd warn a newbie about - taking info at face value because it makes you feel good about yourself.
* Sanguinarius agrees with Zero.
<Ravena> The more nuts someone is, the more they welcome a new person with open arms.
<Sanguinarius> Hey, Ravena, lol... you calling me a nut?
<Ravena> You're the good kind of nut Sanguinarius ;)
<Vyrdolak> I've become very contrarian. I think it should be much harder to find us.
<Vyrdolak> People don't value what comes too easily.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: Then it becomes a question of who the newbies find first.
<CorvisNocturnum> @Vyrdolak: Then won’t people be more lost than ever?
<Vyrdolak> Is it our business to "find" them?
<Zero> The OVC went online in the first place because newbies and the curious were getting snookered pretty badly by those outside the community.
<ThePinkLady> Semi-sidetrack, it's like the media: If we don't stand up and represent ourselves, it's an open invitation to let a less stellar example represent us.
<Vyrdolak> Trouble is, the "nuts," cult leaders, use tactics that reel people in, deliberately.
<Vyrdolak> Do we WANT to do that?
<Lono> Seeing how much Twilight, TrueBlood etc. spam I’ve gotten in the past year... I’m starting to agree with Vyrdolak, and take this whole thing back into the shadows.
<Merticus> How difficult does everyone think it is for the average "newcomer" or "novice" to find the actual "real vampire community" today?
<Ravena> It's extremely easy Merticus.
<Zero> @Merticus: I think it takes about fifteen seconds on Google.
<Marcus_Noir> The Community used to be very elitist to filter out those that were not serious and the just curious…
<Zakary> I think we need to categorize people and groups within the community. Those that have a face and that are publicly accessible 'important', those who are faceless 'irrelevant'… easy! We could only inform people of groups that have a visible and public profile. Groups like the Aset Ka etc. Who are they. Who is the leader? I don't know do you. Why would I recommend them?
<ThePinkLady> @Zakary: Agreed about the "face" thing.
<ThePinkLady> But not the importance/unimportance.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: What if they just show up?
<Sanguinarius> Depending on how far they get when they look, it could be pretty easy.
<Ravena> It's too late for the shadows.
<Ravena> We are full of media whores.
<Vyrdolak> @Ravena: You remember the scene in Jurassic Park with the flashlight and the T-Rex?
<Vyrdolak> It's time to turn off the fucking flashlights.
<Lono> The only ones that seem to be elitist these days are the Temple of the Vampire (TOV) and Aset Ka.
<Zero> @Ravena: See PinkLady’s comment. I remember the days of the Sally Jessy Raphael show and do not want to go back to that.
<Marcus_Noir> There have already been several attempts to create exactly what we are discussing...
<Marcus_Noir> One of the House of the Dreaming (HotD) members tried this before, for example, with the Red Pages...
<Zero> Yes, the Red Pages didn't work so well.
<Lono> Not that I mind giving information to people that need it…
<CorvisNocturnum> If we disappear who will take our place?
<Zakary> Yes not in those terms but you get the gist.
<Vyrdolak> Can we ever come to consensus on just what is "accurate information"?
<Ravena> I'm not sure it's possible.
<Marcus_Noir> @Vyrdolak: Its obvious that no we can't.
<Zero> I would hope that "accurate" info is information about the community and about how vampires THINK about vampires.
<CorvisNocturnum> That is why I suggest a united traded list where we support each others’ websites.
<ThePinkLady> I think I suggested at another meeting about coming up with a good info/bad info checklist and Anshar was dead set against it.
<Vyrdolak> In that case, how can we direct new people to it?
<Lono> Since most vampires have a different sets of skill sets and their own personal truths...
<CorvisNocturnum> Ahem... see above :)
<Zakary> I don't know if 'accurate' is the correct term or perhaps credible. If coming from a credible group.
<Ravena> Well, I have my own list of what I consider "accurate".
<Marcus_Noir> We can't even get our own members to have an open mind towards individual differences and, gasp, respect each other...
<Marcus_Noir> So how can we expect this so called community to do the same?
<Zero> I don't suggest we try to become authorities on the nature of vampirism, which I have to admit we don't understand real well anyway.
<Sanguinarius> How about solid info vs. lala-land info?
<Vyrdolak> I mean, how am I going to refer/recommend a new person to a group I think isn't correct?
<Merticus> We're asked on a weekly basis almost by people "what houses or groups are located in my city?" etc. - we field more of those questions now than the general vampire FAQ variety. People simply wishing to network.
<ThePinkLady> @Merticus: I wrote a "how to find vamps in your area" guide for the Yahoo group because I was tired of clearing those questions out of the post queue.
<Ravena> But some of the community don't like it as it excludes some of their beliefs (same ones that render them special).
<Vyrdolak> @Sanguinarisus: But everyone has legit people they think are "lala-land".
<CorvisNocturnum> We need put differences aside or be labeled kooks.
<Zero> The community exists so that we can help put one another onto a path of self-discovery. We are not a canned tin of answers.
<Sanguinarius> So we might as well just give up :(
<Vyrdolak> Some people in the VC see me as a loony-tune "mystic".
<Vyrdolak> I don't agree with the psi-vamps.
<CorvisNocturnum> We don't need agree on specifics!
<CorvisNocturnum> Just the unification of safe places.
* ThePinkLady agrees with Corvis.
<Vyrdolak> New people come in and get all this confusing input.
<Lono> There’s nothing wrong with that Vyrdolak.
<Sanguinarius> The irony is, Vyrdolak, that it's your site that introduced me to psychic vampires.
<Vyrdolak> Except I don't agree with the paradigm of "psi-feeding" the evolved AFTER I published my article.
<Vyrdolak> But that's not germane to the agenda item.
<Vyrdolak> The question is, how much can we worry about whether new people get "accurate information" when all the information is so conflicting?
<Merticus> There seems to be a growing rift between some sangs and some psi's over what is "accurate" information... hopefully any conflicting views won't confuse those seeking the basic fundamentals of vampirism as they are most widely understood (at least at a core level).
<Zakary> Yes, safe = credible, known etc. Unsafe = the secret Vampire empire run by 'secret Lestats'
<CorvisNocturnum> @Zakary: Agreed.
<Vyrdolak> Okay, do we concentrate on integrity and honesty among leaders, not their specific views?
<CorvisNocturnum> @Vyrdolak: Most old sites provide that well enough.
<Vyrdolak> Another question is, how do we evaluate offline groups without direct in-person contact?
<CorvisNocturnum> Isn't integrity provable by actions?
<Zakary> I think you have to, I am not concerned with individual beliefs myself. As long as they don't suggest breaking any laws.
<CorvisNocturnum> By phone calls, people vouching for them.
<Vyrdolak> @Corvis: What if a group has such strict confidentiality; it's hard to know what they do?
<Ravena> I'm sure Merticus could find out.
<Vyrdolak> That doesn't mean they're bad, just very discreet.
<CorvisNocturnum> Unfortunately they would be passed over.
<Lono> To me I have members and other administrators, though when I wrote the site it was mostly an old compilation of my previous posts on different forums that I added on to.
<Lono> And I have had sections of my site changed as my knowledge has grown.
<Lono> Nytemuse has revised a few of the FAQ answers as new "understandings became available.
<Zakary> If a group is so secret then that's fine, you don't get listed!
<Sanguinarius> Maybe those core ones should be more firmly established?
<Zero> I would prefer to see a list of guidelines for interaction rather than a "list of safe groups" a manners list and a when-to-worry list are far less disagreeable.
<Merticus> I think we can start evaluating offline groups in a regional sense - those who have experience in certain areas or a write-up about certain offline groups.
<Vyrdolak> @Zakary: But what if a secretive group is the best option in a locality?
<CorvisNocturnum> How about Michelle Belanger or Joseph Laycock? They know most on and offline people fairly well right?
<Zero> @Corvis - I think we're talking about steering newcomers to not-crazy community groups so they don't accidentally join a fringe group or cult when they were looking for us.
<Zero> and not all offline groups are interested in taking on new members.
<Lono> Good call.
<Marcus_Noir> @Zero: Exactly
<Marcus_Noir> Let me interject some thing here...
<Marcus_Noir> There are more private offline groups than there are known ones.
<Marcus_Noir> Not every group is seeking public and internet attention.
<Vyrdolak> The Pagan community has exactly the same issues.
<Vyrdolak> Seekers, especially. young people, can't find good groups and don't feel confident enough to start one.
<CorvisNocturnum> ALL communities have this problem. Same as us.
<Sanguinarius> How do they deal with it?
<Zakary> It is really up that group and whether they feel it beneficial to be listed. If they don't that's OK. They don't have to ostracized. However, as the community develops it will become more public so it needs credibility.
<ThePinkLady> It's sad that we can't have the internet equivalent of a storefront.
<Vyrdolak> Good leaders are hard to find, and they burn out.
<Zero> @Sanguinarius: They give advice on choosing groups, they don't evaluate the groups.
<Sanguinarius> That is probably the best approach then.
<CorvisNocturnum> @Vyrdolak: You’re still here and Merticus, etc.
<Lono> They don’t burn out if they take vacations…
<CorvisNocturnum> Sanguinarius has one of the oldest sites I believe.
<Sanguinarius> Vyrdolak and I have the oldest.
<Ravena> Sanguinarius was around since the horse and wagon.
<Ravena> Vyrdolak too I suspect.
<Vyrdolak> I burned out on forums and e-groups, though, I won't do them anymore.
<Vyrdolak> I do one-on-one contact.
<Merticus> I do not plan to be around as much in the future... I'm beyond burned out at this point. It's more a "chore" than anything else at this point for me.
<CorvisNocturnum> And that is how I discovered this community.
<Sanguinarius> I burned out on email, I HATE e-mail!
<Ravena> So there are plenty of others who live offline and never venture into this realm.
<Zero> Yeah, can we abolish all email?
<Sanguinarius> I mean, I like the concept... I just hate the avalanche of it endlessly flowing to me, taking up my inbox.
<ThePinkLady> About burnout: What happens when our pillars step down?
<Vyrdolak> I'm getting more and more people now who write and say they don't want to read a lot, they want personal replies.
<Zero> @Vyrdolak: If kids today don't want to "read a lot" they can damn well remain ignorant! (get off my lawn!)
<Vyrdolak> @Zero: I'm not judging, just reporting.
<Sanguinarius> No, they need knowledge forcibly injected into their tiny brains!
<Sanguinarius> Vyrdolak, that's what I try to avoid.
<Vyrdolak> Young people are abandoning e-mail, half my inquiries are texted now.
<Zero> @Vrydolak - :)
<Zero> I got little patience for people who are handed info on a plate, and insist on being spoon-fed too.
<ThePinkLady> @Vyrdolak: not always.
<Lono> When you average 25-100 emails a day... I get behind and I don’t allow people to text me anymore.
<Ravena> "You're special, you're a vampire, let me teach you my uber powers" basically.
<ThePinkLady> From my Yahoo Group, I can tell you that -- well, what Ravena said.
<ThePinkLady> No wonder Daemonox lurks. It's become grand central station for special snowflakes.
<CorvisNocturnum> Lono, once upon a time, perhaps...maybe not anymore with fiction running rampant.
<Zero> @Ravena: Yep, that's why it's so scary to let these impressionable folks just hang in the wind - someone without scruples will pick up on those people if we don't set them straight.
<CorvisNocturnum> @Zero: Exactly my point for bring up the topic.
<Marcus_Noir> Ok, so here's the question...
<Marcus_Noir> Who wants to put the energy into creating a directory of online and offline groups that is Google search able of discovery, listing regional bodies?
<Marcus_Noir> AND keep it neutral?
<Marcus_Noir> That is a Herculean task kids.
<CorvisNocturnum> I'm neutral but lack the time.
<Zakary> Here we are having an international meeting. I am going out of my way to communicate with others.
<Zakary> People who live offline won't really be affected by recommendations?
<Vyrdolak> I just don't feel connected enough to do that, I'm too iconoclastic.
<Vyrdolak> I've had a couple of inquiries from worried parents, that's another issue.
<ThePinkLady> @Marcus: Yup. Too bad meetup.com charges.
<ThePinkLady> That was a decent neutral ground before the economy tanked.
<Marcus_Noir> @PinkLady: That is why we had parties in Gotham.
<Marcus_Noir> To find each other.
<Merticus> The information I’ve compiled for the offline groups/houses I will put into a database and release to people to do with what they wish. I will not have time to organize it all but will be able to classify by geographic location best I can.
<Vyrdolak> Another question, too, is what seekers WANT from these groups. What do they expect?
<Sanguinarius> @Merticus: Should I redirect my Regional Groups effort to yours? No sense duplicating efforts and my project is way out of the loop.
<Merticus> @Sanguinarius: Let me compile the info I have into a database first. I have other projects stacked in front. I'm in process of delegating tasks out to people where I have more time on my hands to wrap things up.
<Sanguinarius> I need to delegate the task of delegating tasks to other people.
<Vyrdolak> Another question is, how many seekers are REALLY "awakening", etc. and how many just want to be part of a fantasy?
<ThePinkLady> I don't know what's worse, having to slap down someone who doesn't know that posting their 200+ age is a bad idea, or the group members who think that I was heavy-handed in correcting the snowflake.
<Merticus> Or how many just want to feel like they belong to something and this is their escape?
<Lono> My biggest pet peeve is when people sign up on forums, and ask questions that were even in the first page of my website.
<Vyrdolak> Are there really that many more authentic new vamps than there ever were (i.e. not many)?
<CorvisNocturnum> We can never know for sure until they stay involved.
<CorvisNocturnum> The proof is in the pudding, as it goes.
<Sanguinarius> I'm almost loathe to talk to people and give out info at all these days.
<ThePinkLady> Once the popular media finds something else to chase, I wonder if the number of curious folks will die down?
<Zero> @Vyrdolak: That's why we're better off teaching people how to listen to themselves rather than trying to educate them in any other way.
<CorvisNocturnum> Sanguinarius: Isn't that what FAQs are for?
<Sanguinarius> @Corvis: Yes
<Vyrdolak> I am not dissing or condescending to ANY seekers, regardless of motive.
<Vyrdolak> Different motives require different responses.
<CorvisNocturnum> The video series helps.
<Zero> I'm thinking we should branch out - the vampire community self-help series!
<Sanguinarius> I'll be the first to buy the program.
<Zero> Chicken blood soup for the confused soul.
<Sanguinarius> Duck's blood soup for the vampire soul.
<Vyrdolak> @Zero: I totally agree, but it's not so easy to do!
<Zero> No, especially since the seekers will often fight you on it. The fantasy-seekers will totally shop around until they find their Lestat.
<Vyrdolak> Everything is moving to video now, that's why I've been taking a class.
<Vyrdolak> My living room is morphing into a full studio.
<ThePinkLady> I think the OVC is helped by moving to newer formats, videos and podcasts and the like.
<ThePinkLady> Though it's harder to maintain anonymity.
<Zero> @ThePinkLady: Anonymity is a big issue.
<Ravena> I was a seeker around ten years ago when I showed up in Sanguinarius’ channel.
<Lono> I do give some lessons on my website.
<Merticus> The more multimedia, the less actual time spent writing/posts/articles etc. with new information.
<Vyrdolak> Well, the fantasy-seekers really want to belong to something, that's the core of it.
<CorvisNocturnum> @Merticus: YouTube?
<CorvisNocturnum> No one wants to read anymore.
<ThePinkLady> I'm a snob: I still prefer book info because (most of the time) it's been checked.
<CorvisNocturnum> LOL; Merticus edited my book.
<Merticus> YouTube, Podcasts, FetLife, Social Networking etc.
<Ravena> It's not that hard to be anonymous if you're not out in the media.
<Zakary> I would like to see more decent books.
<Sanguinarius> Me too.
<Vyrdolak> Anonymity is contra-indicated to being taken seriously, I'm afraid.
<Zero> @Vyrdolak: I've seen this be both good and bad, since the community will accept you "as you are" and encourage you to not lie to yourself. Some fantasy seekers find they can belong without the fantasy.
<Zero> The community has lots of non-vampire members who come in through that door.
<Ravena> Any idiot can write a book.
<Zakary> Not a good book.
<ThePinkLady> @Ravena: I know... but there's a difference between Joseph Laycock and PublishAmerica.
<Zero> @Ravena - :) True that.
<CorvisNocturnum> Ravena... my feelings are wounded lol
<Ravena> I didn't mean you Corvis, by all counts your books are decent.
<Ravena> Though I must admit I have not read one yet.
<CorvisNocturnum> Thank you.
<Zakary> That's why Ravena… we need more good books!
<Merticus> I'm just happy Laycock is now in nearly 280+ libraries. The more that responsible academic texts find their way into the hands of those writing articles/papers/books on the vampire community in the future, the greater the likelihood of more accurate representations replacing outdated and “alarmist” information that’s been in print for well over a decade.
<Vyrdolak> Yes, well, Laycock... that's another story.
<Zero> I'm glad that he can put ideas together.
<ThePinkLady> @Merticus: My library system just ordered Michelle's Psychic Vampire Codex.
<ThePinkLady> I'm proud of my backwater library.
<Vyrdolak> What about new people/seekers?
<Vyrdolak> I mean, what I do is tell people to check out a whole set of websites with different info and make up their own minds?
<Lono> The problem with changing the name from ‘vampires’ is that it’s hard for people to find us... like calling each other Quinotaurian, Kheprian, etc.
<Ravena> I give people websites that I think generally contain decent information.
<ThePinkLady> So if someone just wants to learn more about vampires, and isn't an asshat, should we turn them away?
<Ravena> I don't.
<ThePinkLady> I'd rather help out a fellow info mole than a self-possessed "awakening" vamp twit.
<Vyrdolak> I'd say no, why would we?
<Lono> Most of what I’ve written out of my book or decided it wasn’t appropriate is being added to my website.
<Lono> The Pagan community knows us as psychic vampires... or just vampires.
<Lono> Most that find us... find us through that community.
<Vyrdolak> Yeah, and the Pagan community doesn't like us.
<Vyrdolak> I avoided a local Samhain thing because their keynote speaker was talking about "defending against psychic vampires"
<Zero> Yeah, the Pagan community has historically hated us, but some groups are coming round.
<Merticus> With better websites, books, and FAQ's we'll likely (and in some cases I think we already are) have to answer fewer and fewer of the same questions over and over.
<CorvisNocturnum> @Merticus: List of websites, books, etc?
<Merticus> We have that already though - well some of us. Just point people to resources, etc.
<Ravena> I was a newbie once upon a time, though I never thought myself a vampire.
<Zero> We have never turned away the self-professed non-vampire curious.
<ThePinkLady> @Zero: Which is good.
<Vyrdolak> I just made up a text file of answers, cut-and-paste, over and over and over.
<ThePinkLady> The community could go for a bibliography.
<ThePinkLady> As well as an un-bib. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think there's a need to shout down erroneous and dangerous information as well.
<Zero> @ThePinkLady and Ravena: Yeah, I meant to imply that that was a good thing.
<Zero> The term "seeker" usually includes anyone who wants to know more, and doesn't favor the self-questioning over the merely curious.
* Sanguinarius is thinking the same thing.
<CorvisNocturnum> @ThePinkLady: Sanguinarius did that no?
<ThePinkLady> @Corvis: Yes
<Sanguinarius> Hey, what about collaboration on Google Wave?
<Sovereign> Hi
<Vyrdolak> Yeah, I'm on Google Wave now and I don't know WTF to do with it! And I'm a geek!
<Merticus> Anyone have anything else to add on topic A before we move to B?
<ThePinkLady> My family's married into practicing pagans. I'm getting a crash course in shielding.
<Sanguinarius> I have an invite or two in my inbox I need to jump on and sign up.
<Lono> I’ve been working to improve relations with the Pagan community.
<Vyrdolak> There's more of a "dark Paganism" thing in vogue, but... the Pagan community is outside our topic.
<Lono> True
<Vyrdolak> I'm done with Item A.
<Merticus> Ok we're moving on to topic B.
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