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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  Community Discussion: Vampire Community Members & Leaders Who Fall From Grace 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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« on: July 18, 2011, 11:53:50 am »

Vampire Community Members & Leaders Who Fall From Grace

There's been much discussion about "judicial councils" and rewrites of the Black Veil over the past couple of years.  Crimes committed against members of the vampire community by members of the vampire community resulting in conviction by a court of law are generally a black area where most of us would feel comfortable removing said individual(s) from our websites, groups, forums, networks, etc.  As we know, not everything is black and white...

The purpose of this question is to examine scenarios involving members of the vampire community in good standing (well known and respected members and/or leaders) not disclosing information about crimes they have committed outside the immediate purview of the vampire community.  Let's discuss the possible consequences from association with these individuals and how far the veil of privacy should extend after the discovery of a blatant misdirection regarding one's actual identity in order to conceal a criminal background and/or for personal gain or accolades at the expense of other members in the vampire community.

Consider These Questions:

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?


Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community? 

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?


Thank you for taking the time to offer your opinions and thoughts on these questions.



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ClayCat
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 12:45:27 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?
That is a difficult question. If one's personal life presents a risk to community members (such as a history involving abuse) then it very well might be our problem, depending on the specific circumstances. I say "specific circumstances" because this is a big gray area. One person's lifestyle is another person's crime sometimes.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?
Violent crimes, definitely. Other crimes, again, it would depend on the circumstances. I had a community elder steal money from me, but I would not necessarily advocate that they be banished from every network we share. They were banished from the site where they advertised a service that they later failed to provide (they also failed to provide a refund for those who paid).

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?
I would take these into consideration in some cases, depending on the severity of the crime.

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?
If the person presents a threat to others, then yes.

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community? 
None really, unless it was a situation in which their privacy or safety were at stake. I do not need to know everything about a person, but I would rather they just tell me that they will not share such information than lie about it, if possible.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?
When such deception is done to take advantage of or manipulate another person.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.
Again, if the person presents a threat to others.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?
We should be warned that an investigation is pending, even if we do not know who the identity of the person being investigated.

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WingedWolfPsion
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 01:01:41 pm »

1-A)  Really, only the point at which they are engaging in illegal activities.

2-B)  I think MOST crimes would be a valid reason not to permit someone access.  They would have to be considered on a case-by-case basis.  A shoplifting conviction from 20 years ago is probably not cause for concern, but a shoplifting conviction from last week indicates an individual that you just don't really want around.  The type of mentality that leads to the commission of crimes is the real concern, not necessarily how 'petty' the crime was.  Obviously we don't want violent criminals hanging around, but in general, we don't want ANY sort of criminals hanging around.  That said, the guy who didn't pay his car insurance, or the girl who got arrested at a sit-in protest are probably not going to be an issue for the community.  The nature of the crime and the mentality behind it are important.

1-C)  Absolutely.  A conviction of assault that occurred because someone was defending their mate from being groped by a stranger, for example, is something that might happen, but not something most people would actually find concerning (most would cheer the guy on).

1-D)  I don't think this is a very relevant question.  Anyone convicted of a concerning crime is going to conceal that fact, anyhow.  Does the community have a right to know about it?  I think everyone has the right to know when someone has been convicted of a crime, period.

2-A)  I'm not particularly concerned with misdirection, but fabrications and lies should simply not be tolerated, at all, at any point in time, for any reason.

2-B)  The point at which they lie, instead of just choosing to refuse to answer a question?

2-C)  The point at which there's a criminal conviction.  The general public has a right to know that as well.

3-A)  I would be irritated, but the cops don't really care about me, and anyone who's not actually directly involved with the case would be ignored, no matter how weird, unless they were actually doing something patently illegal and the evidence was there on the machine.  In other words, innocent people whose names are on that guys computer really don't have much, if anything, to worry about.
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 01:03:13 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; either micro or macro?

It should only become a concern/problematic if it affects the overall community, and that's only if it really does have hard, negative impact.  If people's lives & well being are put in danger, then yeah, it's a problem.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?

The crime would have to be serious (pedophilia, murder, hate crimes, child abuse, domestic violence, rape, etc).  However evidence would have to be provided & checked.  Accusing someone of the crimes is not the same as them actually committing them.  People get pissy over stupid shite and tend to make false accusations just to cause harm.  The accusers are, in my book, no better than someone who actually commits the crime because they are making false allegations.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?

If the accused is actually guilty, they have no place in life.  It's harsh, but that's life.  I am not a forgiving person when it comes to seriously heinous crimes.  Petty theft, drug dealing, being incarcerated for taking drugs,/prostitution, etc are forgivable ONLY if the accused has learned from their mistake and make the necessary changes to better themselves.  I don't believe a killer or a pedophile can change (same goes for the other "types" that I listed in 1-B).  If they do, kudos to them, but I still won't have them around me, my kids or my Family if I can help it.

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?

Depends on the crime.  For the more heinous crimes, I feel there is a right to know because we should be aware of who is near us & our families.  If a person is accused of something, I don't feel anything should be said until hard proof is presented and verified to be true.  Until it's presented & verified, it's only hearsay.

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community?

I'm not a very forgiving person.  I have more respect for someone who is brutally honest than I do for someone who tells me a lie to spare my feelings.  If someone puts out misinformation, and knows it, they deserve to be blacklisted.  If their misinformation causes death or physical harm, then they deserve to be PNG/SN or whatever.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?

I'm stealing Mikyla's response on this because I agree with her:  When you're a criminal who is keeping your dayside from the community in order to commit more crimes. On this one, I'll even remove the violent from criminal/crimes because even if you are someone who burgles people - if you hide your dayside in order to move around within the community an expand your victim pool, it's reprehensible.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?

It depends on the offense, in my opinion.  If it's to keep the community safe, then yeah, there's a right to know.

3-A.)  Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a State of Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?

Since I have no criminal record and I'm not involved in any criminal activity (nor do I plan to be), I wouldn't be bothered by it.  Truth is, there are very few people who know my real name, my address or even my phone number.  Those that do have it, to my knowledge, are not involved in any activities that would warrant their property being seized ... and even if they were, I still wouldn't be concerned (re: re-read the first sentence.).
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darkrev100
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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2011, 02:13:35 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?

when they , by inference, accident or deliberate intention commit crime or bring the community into disrepute by their actions. When they refuse to establish that their actions are not representative of the community but infact the actions of their individual self




1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?
pedophilia, murder ( except in extremes where their own life was in danger) deception, fraud, rape, any crimes against minors... eg: chat room grooming ect

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.? as above for murder

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not? Every one is entitled to privacy , but should they become part of an organisation or join a group, the person in chrge should be entrusted to make a decision on behalf of the group and should not have to reveal why.

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community?  only that which was shown to be as a need to protect themselves or loved ones from harm or as a result of illness like bi-polar where they were delusional

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach? If information given was to glorify their ego or was to obtain goods, trust or membership where this was based on lies then crosses the line.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.
if that person puts themselves willingly in the spotlight and professed to represent anyone but themselves then they are subject to scrutiny

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?
Participation in this community runs risks that must be considered by each individual. if the information was not kept by the individual with the intention of revealing you details then due process of law must take it's course . We must be cautious as a community that there are those who seem themselves as suitable to rule and make judgement over others , but also some actions cannot be tolerated. Balance must be sought between these two positions
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2011, 03:45:45 pm »

The over all vampire community is a collection of individuals and independent and allied groups. As such this is another pointless thought exercise in laws for the whole community. It is up to the individuals and groups to say what their guidelines are for their people. As long as local laws are not being broken, it is fair game.
Now, the other problem here is that this is coming right on the heels of another announcement that includes a section saying that one should compartmentalize OVC versus everyday life. If that idea is supported than there is no reason that people should be excluding someone for a "mundane law" crime as that is a separate compartment.
This all goes back to what I keep saying of being a real person that is not just play acting the part online, and getting rid of the people who are obviously mental ill, or just playing a part as a lifestyles or a roleplayer. If people want to be taken seriously we need to take ourselves seriously and drop the real dead weight; that is the lifestyle community, the mentally unwell that just need proper medication, and religion. There is no single thing that I have seen so far anywhere that is correctly explained by religion once science takes a serious look at it. We are the same; but science will not look when most of the people to look at are full of crap or needing medication.
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theUVUP
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 08:20:51 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?

*When is brings the law in our in our community because of you period.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/​etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?

*Crimes again which bring the law in our in our community because of you crimes including MURDER, RAPE, PEDOPHILIA, CHILD MOLESTATION, and TERRORISM period.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?

Murder means killing a person with malicious intent so that covers that and murder begets murder and a lifetime offense as is rape and child molestation.

As far as mental condition that is a hard one but if they are not trying to fix there behaviors that should be seen as failure to cooperate with justice and seen as guilt.

As far as sentence it should be similar depending on circumstance esp number 1

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters? Why, or why not?

The one being charged should most certainly know as well as given a chance to present is side and defend him or her self.

The community should now about a person who has committed crimes esp crimes such as MURDER, RAPE, PEDOPHILIA, CHILD MOLESTATION, and TERRORISM. They should know if hr has been excommunicated or SN for such crimes as mentioned above…

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

Only if he or she has been excommunication for them. You do not need to embarrass an individual of there personal conditions or personal addictions unless they choose to bring them forward, unless of cause it they could cause harm to others, or have been excommunicated because of them and it is was a crime such as those mentioned above…

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community?

Lies to me I never except unless if was meant to protect an individual from harm from another esp family or to keep ones Other Kin or Vampyre side a secret. Many family members, friends, and esp work could never except us for misunderstanding of our lifestyle so that can bee seen as a form of personal protection.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?

That’s a hard one. Personally I do not lie about what I am as I am no good at lying and my morals won’t easily let me. An individual in my opinion should only need to hide what they are to:

1. Keep a job in these hard times

2. Keep there family/friends safe and/or from kicking them out of the family

3. Personal protection (esp in other countries or zealots)

4. Keep there kids safe and/or from being taken away

5. Keep there property, positions, money, and from being homeless

There may be more but that’s all I came up with for now and that is just my opinion but there may be more reasons out there…

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters? Explain.

I think I explained everything above and cant think of anything else at this time

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case. This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual. For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law. What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?

Well if its child pornography its most certainly should be known however these things can be put on there by other people other than the owner of the community. However for the safety of the community we most certainly must make theses things known and keep the individual at a safe distance away from the community. We certainly should make a public statement to make our separation from them known. An individual is free to do whatever they want about there association with them as long as they do not bring them into the community…

Father JP Vanir
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hexmoon3
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 12:03:28 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level? I believe if they have committed any major crimes it would be a problem because it gives us a bad reputation. Since people like to generalize about certain communities if there was a child abuser in our community then we might be pegged as child abusers etc.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks? I believe is people are being stalked by a certain person or threatened by a person we should probably remove them. Also, if someone has gotten arrested because of abusing others or child molestation we should not allow them in our community. All of this can be turned on us.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.? If a crime was committed in self defense if pretty much the only thing I would take into account. That or if it was proved they were falsely accused. 

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?  I believe there is a right to know. We should be able to know what people have done so that we can decide what to do about certain people.

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community? I do not really accept lies from anyone vampire or not.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach? If people are walking around as their dayside person and spreading rumors about the vampire community or they start to spread anything related to movies as being real then I believe that is a problem. Dayside people should not talk about anything vampire related in my opinion.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain. We have the right to know what we are up against. We should be permitted to know if the person we are talking too will spread rumors about us or try to stalk us. We should also be permitted to be aware of any abusive issues they may have been charged for. You would not want your children or people close to you, to meet someone who has the potential to harm.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter? I would not really be concerned about anything. That specific person committed the crime and I did not.
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2011, 04:41:32 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?

In my opinion, if an individual who is actively associated with the VC, or filling a leadership role in the VC is discovered to be a career criminal, sex-offender or someone who has been involved in serious crimes, this will reflect negatively on the public image of the VC and on Vampyres as a whole. It will have a negative effect on the image of the VC internally, i.e. in the eyes of members of the VC, because we will have greater reason to doubt each other, to doubt the people we place our faith in as mentors and leaders, both in the form of spiritual guidance as well as in terms of Group leadership. Such a reduction in levels of interpersonal trust and an increase in suspicion of each other within a community could result in a weakening of the fabric that holds us together and makes us grow as a community. When such people are unmasked, especially by outsiders, it also creates doubt about how serious a community we are, and of who may or may not be a pretender or a complete fake or fabrication.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?

Any crime in which another person was seriously harmed, any crime which would make placing such a person in a position of trust or in the company of minors or anyone who may become a victim of abuse, unwise or a serious risk, and any crime in which the individual has garnered enough infamy as to draw negative attention to him/herself and which would negatively affect the community.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?

I think it's a good policy to treat each case on its own merits, but that it's a good rule of thumb that if a member of the VC started in the community by concealing past crimes, or joined for the purposes of committing future crimes, then they should be kept out of the community regardless of their circumstances for the good of the community.

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?

Most of us choose to keep our night and dayside identities separate because of the very real damage we could suffer, should society in general ever learn our nature on an individual basis. I believe that precludes the right to know when we are speaking about the general community - however, I believe that "some central authority" *should* be entrusted with the task of verifying and keeping track of who is who and that people are who they claim to be within the VC - at the very least in terms of leaders and prominent figures within the community.

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community?

I may be willing to accept that those in leadership positions in the VC are people who may have more experience than I in its matters and dealings, and that for various reasons some information may be restricted by them. I am prepared to accept that most individuals I deal with in the community either online or in real life will not disclose to me their true names, or other details about their dayside lives - but that this is done in good faith in order to protect their lives and interests - and that while they will not tell me everything - the things they DO share with me will not be false or intended to mislead me to believe things about them that are untrue, or more impressive or for the purposes of attracting attention or favor, or to deceive the community. However, when it comes to people building entire fake lives around their nightside profile and misleading others for extended periods of time that they are someone entirely different, and for no other apparent reason than to deceive and bluff others for achieving their own aims or to somehow gain from it - I do not see a need for it, nor do I approve of it.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?

I am prepared to accept that most individuals I deal with in the community either online or in real life will not disclose to me their true names, or other details about their dayside lives - but that this is done in good faith in order to protect their lives and interests - and that while they will not tell me everything - the things they DO share with me will not be false or intended to mislead me to believe things about them that are untrue, or more impressive or for the purposes of attracting attention or favor, or to deceive the community. If someone who had a police record, for being a sexual offender for example, and went online pretending to be someone entirely different, a fine upstanding member of the VC for example, and built a solid reputation within the community - and over time, this person became trusted by the community, even being approached and entrusted with the mentoring of others, I think that is where the danger lies. Perhaps some may turn over a new leaf this way, but there is a greater chance that such people would use this opportunity to act as a predator. In any event, were such a person's association with the VC to become public, it would have negative consequences for the VC.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.

I would say the broader vampire community has a right to know that their leaders/public figures, people they share a real life group with, are who they claim to be, do not have serious criminal records, multiple nightside personas etc, and that someone at least (a central body of some kind) can vouch for them, while protecting their dayside identities if they require anonymity.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?

Most of the VC sites I have visited, I believe are within international law, and have nothing to fear from law enforcement. My personal actions, should I be one such individual whose details have come into possession of law enforcement during such an investigation, have been in good faith, and as far as I can tell, within the law, and so aside from the risk that I may be exposed as being part of the VC, I doubt I would have anything to fear. However, being exposed publicly as a vampire might have severe repercussions for my dayside social standing, and my career, as well as my life.
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legardored
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2011, 06:03:42 pm »

1-A.) When any negative publicity from someones personal life does get linked to the community, resulting from conviction of any serious crime, violation or wrong doing.
However I do not believe it is realistically possible to prevent people with wrong intentions of entering a community, aslong as there is a option to stay anonymous on the internet. Seeing as this will always be the case, time is better spend on educating the community and minimizing reputation losses. I trust the community to regulate itself rather than leave the task to a few individuals. Not every concern or problem can be solved there will always be compromises such is life, online and offline.

1-B.) Regarding personal sites, groups, networks: Site management deals only with cases directly related to the specific website, service or any partner issuing a clear warning about a ongoing problem. Screening only happens when a person applies or is considered for a representative position inside the site, service or network.
Regarding friend-lists. Any person that wrongs me or annoys me gets removed. That is why its called a personal list. Being convicted of a crime does not mean I just drop someone from my contact-list. They will however be declined information regarding any group/network they have been removed from. disrespecting that personal decision wil get them removed as well. 

1-C.) No unless when a person gets cleared of the last standing crime. In which case nothing prevents a person from participating.

1-D.) Yes the reason being that any conviction is not a secretive matter. Provide the information if you have it, let others decide for themselves if they take notice of it.

2-A.) None if it concerns community affairs. Personal affairs case by case. 

2-B.) When the lies turn from protecting someone his/her identity to attention-seeking or otherwise giving the community a bad name.

2-C.) Public notice if the lies have affected the global community Explanation to prevent rumors taking worse shapes. If it is a local matter it shouldn't directly have to concern the global community. Actions should than be taken on case by case study.

3-A.) No concerns if it is just a investigation. I would just cooperate if asked. It becomes a concern when something turns into a media circus in which case it will most certainly cost effort to minimize damage.
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Etheros Twilight
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2011, 06:37:02 pm »

First off, since these questions are surfacing, is there a case like this pending against a high profile individual in the community?


1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?

The community is affected as soon as the media labels someone as a vampire. If the public perspective reflects you as a thief/murderer/etc. its bad for you. If the media title states "killer vampire" we all are affected.

1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?[/b]

I think that crimes that present moral turpitude are a good example of what we should look for when seeking banishment. When it comes to a leader/public figure, just as with politicians and other public leaders, the standard is higher. No one is perfect, but when you're under the scrutiny of the public eye, you have to do your damn best to make it appear like you are.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?[/b]

Yes. All factors in any case should be weighed for internal action. Again, however, where the public is involved, we must take PR into weight as well.

1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?[/b]

I believe that it would be honorable for people to take the opportunity to talk about their situation to their peers before they hear it from the media. Would you rather find out your husband is cheating on you from him, or from a newspaper?

Standalone Questions - May or may not be tied with hypothetical situations outlined above:

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community? 

None. I have dealt with enough lies. If you don't want something to be said, have the balls to say so. Lying is a cheap lip service for those who are concerned.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?[/b]

Again, Its not like anyone is going to put a gun to your head and ask what you do for a living. If you want it secret, keep your mouth shut. Malicious intent would have to be examined on a case basis, but if harm was derived from misinformation I feel it's unlikely that its with good intent.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.[/b]

There is a right to know. Whether or not the accused has the courage and respect to face the community before the media has their way with them....is another story.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?[/b]

This question worries me.
If my personal information is leaked due to a law enforcement agency unable to keep it's confidentiality, that is a matter for my attorney on them, not the community. What I reveal is of my own free will, and thus unless said individual uses my information against me, my problem is with the state should they leak information that has no pertinence to the crime whatsoever.
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Darklilone
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 12:57:59 pm »

1-A.) At what point, if any, does one's personal life outside the vampire community become a concern or potentially problematic for the vampire community; both at a micro and macro level?
If/when it puts those within the community at risk, or if/when it reflects poorly on the rest of the community.
Such happenings as someone claiming to be a "vampire" and goes about murdering, raping or what-have-you.. whether they were truly a part or  not, they are lumped in with the community by the rest of the world.. or a member of the community causing similar problems (whether publicized or not)..


1-B.) What specific crimes (not committed against members of the vampire community but resulting in a legal conviction), if any, would warrant a member and/or leader's removal/banishment/PNG/SN/etc. from your personal sites/groups/friend lists/networks?
Again, i'd say anything that puts someone at risk. Assault, murder, rape/molestation.

(this may not quite fit the question) or something even dangerous information. a website or someone who is well known or easily accessible to the media or those new to the community.
Someone claiming that vampires can fly, or claiming that real vampires DO attack their "victims", could be putting people at risk, if someone buys into their claims, and tries it. though i, personally would see if there's a way to get the individual (group or whatever) to correct themselves first, or if they are too set in their delusions.

1-C.) If there are any crimes which meet this threshold, do you take into consideration certain criteria beforehand such as when the crime was committed, mitigating circumstances, post-behavior, duration of sentence, duration of probation, etc.?
Sure. if they've done their time, one would hope they've learned their lesson, though, unfortunately it's a history, a burden they will have to bare. I would keep a closer eye on them, depending on the offense. Oftentimes, once one has commited a crime once, it's easier for them to do it again, not that they are necessarily more likely to re-offend, but i would be watchful.


1-D.) Is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Why, or why not?
I believe so. If it puts people at risk, they deserve to know the basic facts. however they take, and act on and choose to use those basic (unbiased) facts, is up to them.


Standalone Questions

2-A.) What misdirection, fabrications, or outright lies are you personally willing to accept from a member and/or leader of the vampire community?
Pseudonyms in place of their real names, icons or pictures that do not reveal their real identity and similar things.

2-B.) Under what conditions does being secretive and protective of one's dayside cross over into being maliciously deceptive and falsifying information at a level you consider beyond reproach?
when they are putting others at risk, be it of themselves, the media or wherever it could come from.

2-C.) Under what circumstances, if any, is there a "right to know" for the broader vampire community in these matters?  Explain.
Our safety and the safety of those we associate with.

3-A.) Consider for a moment that you have learned that a community member/leader's computer, cell phone, and other electronic devices had been seized by either a state or Federal agency/department in order to substantiate a crime or violation committed by such member/leader and that your online/nightside information (including telephone numbers, conversations, and other contact information you may have provided to them in the past) along with vampire community websites and forums were subject to examination by law enforcement or court officials as part of the case.  This crime or violation does not involve activities relating to the vampire community but do involve a thorough accounting of websites and online activities by this individual.  For purposes of this discussion, assume the crime and/or violation is valid and will be substantiated in a court of law.  What concerns or thoughts, if any, would you have on this matter?

If my information has nothing to do with the offense, then i don't think i'd have much to worry about, would i? I mean, sure, they could keep the information for some sort of future reference, but if i've done nothing wrong, and it has nothing to do with the community (which would be the only subject my information would relate to if shared with members in/of the community) then i don't believe i'd have any concerns until/unless i were contacted, and given reason to feel concerned..
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Vodalok
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 03:15:32 pm »

I agree with most of the above. regulation within the community will be hard to effect and monitor. already we are seeing far to many people claiming to be vampires being incarcerated for one crime or another and publicly saying they did it because of the vampirism. those we know in a public way now as leaders and public faces for the community so far have been upright and mostly intelligent.
should one of them go bad in the future, be it far or near, what we do and how we respond to those actions and accusations in those moments will say a lot about us as a community. so far when someone labeled a vampire by the media we sit quietly in the dark and say nothing publicly. we hope it will go away and that people will forget about it. we all know time dulls the minds of those that are not brow beaten with a topic, but the stigma that is left on the name, and our community as a whole as a result never goes away.
this is what hurts us the most. the growing stigma of what we as a whole are, allow, and accept. its being dictated by the media, not by us.

I guess i am off topic a bit here but in my eyes its dead on and at the heart of the questions you've all answered to this point.

we've as a whole existed in the shadows of polite society for years, every so often someone comes into the light that is either good for the group as a whole or utterly damning. but the community never opens its voice.
i think this is a question we should be asking. why are we still silent.
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