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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  03.16.11 - Blood Is Not Psi! - Zerochan 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 03.16.11 - Blood Is Not Psi! - Zerochan  (Read 24543 times)
CJ!
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« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2011, 04:41:36 pm »

There is a flaw in RKCoon’s argument relating vampirism to other identity groups such as the LGBT community but legardored’s argument certainly didn’t expose it. Every human has a race and the vast majority of human beings (aside from asexuals) have a desire for sexual gratification. It is this desire that really predominates even over procreation in human beings. Gay people have the same desire just oriented differently. Furthermore not even all heterosexuals have the capability for procreation and yet still all have sexual desires. All in all the existence race and sexuality are virtually universal in all human beings and the diversity of each should be appreciated and celebrated.

Often the difference between deviance/illness and mere variation is a subjective judgment. Saying someone who has sanguinarianism (I know it’s a mixed board but the experiences of psi vamps are out of my domain) is flawed is a subjective judgment. However claiming that vampirism is who I am and should be celebrated is also a subjective judgment although certainly a much more uplifting one.

Sanguinarianism has certainly not the universal scope race and sexuality has: it’s an idiosyncratic need. Stripping away any positive or negative social values from the common anecdotal sanguinarian negative we are left with this: don’t consume blood; get sick. This certainly does not sound like an advantageous situation in of itself. To admit as much and hope for relief from such a cycle doesn’t mean you hate yourself and it certainly baffles me why some wouldn’t want relief. Does the diabetic who wishes no longer to need insulin shots hate themselves?

Does this mean that sanguinarians are flawed? Of course not. One of the major failings I find of concepts involving genetic superiority and “weeding out the weak” is that it fails to consider the adaptation to said hindrance. Wouldn’t the resulting ingenuity of making the best of a bad situation and even coming out stronger in some aspects than someone not effected by said hindrance be qualities we would want to pass from generation to generation?

I really can’t blame RK and the majority of sanguinarians who consider their experiences as an integral part of their identity for their stance. Much like the LGBT community there is a lot of bias and prejudice against us. However, the making of sanguinarian experience as identity group also serves as a psychological device to neutralize a disadvantageous situation: if it is a part of you who you are then it’s not a hindrance.

Ultimately as of now to say that sanguinarianism is a core part of your identity is unnecessary. We are just in the beginning in the quest to get empirical facts about sanguinarianism. To claim our experience as an inalterable part of our identity seems presumptuous in that light. The thought of ourselves as an identity group may be worth revisiting however if the facts found are inconclusive or the possible treatment options are so horrifying to the point that blood would by far be a more preferable option.

Regardless of whether one sees sanguinarian, vampire, bemmoknockatock, etc we are all here because in one way or another we are affected. We have made the best of our current situation by sharing our experiences from each other and learning from them. A desire for wishing to no longer be affected and a plan to do so (which may be on its way as we pursue medical facts) is not forsaking oneself but a desire for another way of adaptation: an aim to have sanguinarianism to hinder less or hinder no more. Once we realize that having a hindrance doesn’t make you flawed or awful we can finally put the identity group aegis to bed.
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legardored
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« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2011, 05:04:00 pm »

Paindancer that is a nice way to put it. Though I probably agree with only a small part of what Friedrich ever thought or wrote. I do not consider a egoistic nature a bad thing in itself. It is just the part where people tend to want to be it. But without daring to say it out loud, which I consider bad. Exception when its used for manipulation of others than its just a smart move. The same goes for someone who tends to be more aligned to Altruism.

There is nothing wrong with technology in itself. But our very drive to perfection I do personally consider bad. It just that we tend to forget our instincts and replace them with either logic or emotional comfort instead of letting it coexist. Reason why I call all people flawed and not some specific groups. Unlike eugenics I have personally no love for humanity and no drive to improve it or change it. Off course this will most times be wrongly interpreted as hate. I have no doubt there are groups who do care about all this. But luckily forces always counter themselves, so I really do not think there is anything to worry about. Besides with the impression left behind by world war II it has fallen in disfavor.

It is taken out of proportions totally agree on that seeing as my personal statement was that all humans are flawed and not in a negative way just a realistic way. No one is or can be perfect just be who you are and live the life how you want it.



Now to the other post yes Nadia I agree we are to far into emotions and moral codes thats the very reason why I believe humanity is been tagged by nature for extinction. It should also not be for people to decide who is weak or strong by thinking but with natural instinct. Seeing as how we do not want that nature introduces different ways to reduce our species. The problem will correct itself in time and a new species will take our place as it should be. When or how this happens isn't important. Neither is it negative, it is just nature.

To the question how nature survives human made disasters, that one is rather simple. The same way it survived the years of bombardment of comets, the world wide floods or lava eruptions it just adapts. If we take Chernobyl as example its not a wasteland its green it has animal life. Sure some of it has died but generations after the disaster have gotten more resistant to the radiation. Now if we take Japan as example and the leaking of radioactive material in the ocean its just the same. Fish will die and fish will adapt, we however won't adapt to it. Thats the beauty of nature we as humans seem really afraid of. Both are horrible accidents nonetheless but I am not concerned with nature. I know its more than capable to take care of itself. Now humans will have a hard time recovering and again I am not concerned with that.

Nadia I really think your misinterpreting what I would believe. Of all things it never was meant against a single person its a open debate and that means conflicting opinions. I do not consider any human better than someone else I just consider them different or unique. I do consider humans as species worse than any other animal. So in truth I consider myself less than any other animal to. I do not believe in some kind of redemption as to what Christians or other people believe, to me nature is just preparing to get rid of us like it does with other animals or plants. I do not see any negative element in that I call it the cycle of life and death. We fight some diseases and nature will just create new ones to keep all in balance.

Furthermore I said I believe humanity hinders itself with genetic monogamy and moral codes and yes that also include people who do not procreate thus gay, lesbian or people who have no need for offspring. It has nothing to do with that it would be considered weak genes, its just that genes get lost by not procreating. Loss of genes means less genetic adaption to diseases and environment to name a few.

If you read anything else in it for example a attack on sexual orientation, nothing can be done about that. I can't change a opinion just because it doesn't suit some people. I only change it if I think there is value in evolving it. And that really is different for everyone to decide. So if you think its belittling attitude than let it be that for you its your opinion. That said if you want to move on from this discussion I will respect that and a glass of goat's milk would be more than welcome.
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« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2011, 06:34:38 pm »

y'all aint finished with this one yet? ffs....
what has been figured out?
nothing.........as the norm...
y'all talk about being some type of "man hunter" like your Carlos Hathcock ... you have no idea what the hell your talking about (except what you have read in print) ... untill you have lived that life, drop the so called "expert" crap... the psyco bable BS wont make it in the real world...
Ten years in the Corps , 7 as a shooter 2 as a instructor i have never came across so much BS in my life...
so, unless you want a lesson in stalking/target acquisition and ballistics....and a huge embarrassment... Stick to something you know.... And that is JACK...
Jeeze ... Bunch of damn cyber snipers and shit ..
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paindancer
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« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2011, 08:31:26 pm »

Huh?  Are you reading the same thread we are?

Frankly this has been a pretty pleasant exchange.  No, we haven't been talking guns or even hunting people, to my knowledge.  Id say start a firearm thread, but regrettably the ones I have worked on I still cant talk about, and right now I am working on satellites, which would be more fancy schmancy tech babble.

Legardored,

I guess, it depends on what you define a cultural ego.  We have moved from (in my interpretation) from a species ego (humans must be best) to a personal one (I must be best, and have the most stuff).  At least most of the Northern Hemisphere has adopted a more is better culture, with little thought beyond the next 20 years or so.  The interesting thing is, at the same time we have created entities (corperations) to achieve those means, whos plans and perspective span hundreds of years or more.

I wonder what will happen when the corporations realize that humans are detrimental to the bottom line, lol!

While we share a similar perspective (neither of us seem especially tied to the human condition) I differ from you in the fact I do like to improve and enhance the pretty little shells we run around in for a lifetime. 

But, in a desperate attempt to steer back to topic.. I do think we have several issues at hand which may very well be opportunity to grow as a species.  Vampirism may potentially be a doorway to that means, be it a genetic variance, or spiritual surge.

Who is to say, that vampirism might not be a response to us messing up our own environment?  We screw with things and then require other means to sustain ourselves as a adaptation?

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Paindancer
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« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2011, 09:27:20 pm »

I have to side with PD here. I think it has been a pretty interesting exchange and not a heated we must kill bunnies type either. Not like it can get.

Legardored,
I do see your point there evolutionary wise. I am not so sure about humans being tagged for extinction. Maybe the one's who cannot fathom living without a Starbucks nearby or those who scream and turn tail when nature decides to roam about in their concreted suburbs.

I do still question how well nature will survive the poisons we introduce into everything. They may adapt, but will they continue to adapt in a manner that is benefits or kills them off? That I do not think is for certain. It really could go either way really.

As far as diseases and such, such as it has been for the total time man has been around really. So much so there are stories from the Cherokee that relate to just this. How nature turned against humans and humans had to use plants for medicine to keep from dieing off. It is not a new ideal or something new that has just began happening. Of course it was those who learned and adapted what was around them in their usage that move d forward and kept their people populating and numbers growing. Such as I see continuing as time goes on with people willing to adapt and keep pushign forward.

I was speaking of weak genes and those not procreating in separate and unrelated ways. If one is gay, I do not see how some could state they are for sure depriving the gene pool. Not with so many other choices out there. There is too large of a gene pool for it to be a complete detriment. IF, the gene pool were much smaller I could see it being a detriment.
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legardored
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« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2011, 08:01:42 am »

Well I am here to get my views challenged not to get them confirmed. So as paindancer and Nadia I agree that this has been overall a pleasant discussion. Though it could have gone terrible in a flame battle that risk is always there.And certainly the risk of it becoming that gets greater the longer a discussion continues.  But I rather have this kind of discussion than one which just a true not true mentality. Or where the other person is lagging confidence to stay true to what he she is thinking. And sorry I have no idea what your talking about though I do fire a co2 gun on occasion.

Quote from: paindancer
Legardored,

I guess, it depends on what you define a cultural ego.  We have moved from (in my interpretation) from a species ego (humans must be best) to a personal one (I must be best, and have the most stuff).  At least most of the Northern Hemisphere has adopted a more is better culture, with little thought beyond the next 20 years or so.  The interesting thing is, at the same time we have created entities (corperations) to achieve those means, whos plans and perspective span hundreds of years or more.

I wonder what will happen when the corporations realize that humans are detrimental to the bottom line, lol!

While we share a similar perspective (neither of us seem especially tied to the human condition) I differ from you in the fact I do like to improve and enhance the pretty little shells we run around in for a lifetime. 

But, in a desperate attempt to steer back to topic.. I do think we have several issues at hand which may very well be opportunity to grow as a species.  Vampirism may potentially be a doorway to that means, be it a genetic variance, or spiritual surge.

Who is to say, that vampirism might not be a response to us messing up our own environment?  We screw with things and then require other means to sustain ourselves as a adaptation?
Everything is possible I am myself very interested in what makes us tick, how diseases work or what influence it all has. For me its just interesting not part of the drive to enhance ourselves. But I can fully respect it if someone does want to do that its there right who am I to judge them on it.

Quote from: Nadia
I have to side with PD here. I think it has been a pretty interesting exchange and not a heated we must kill bunnies type either. Not like it can get.

Legardored,
I do see your point there evolutionary wise. I am not so sure about humans being tagged for extinction. Maybe the one's who cannot fathom living without a Starbucks nearby or those who scream and turn tail when nature decides to roam about in their concreted suburbs.

I do still question how well nature will survive the poisons we introduce into everything. They may adapt, but will they continue to adapt in a manner that is benefits or kills them off? That I do not think is for certain. It really could go either way really.

As far as diseases and such, such as it has been for the total time man has been around really. So much so there are stories from the Cherokee that relate to just this. How nature turned against humans and humans had to use plants for medicine to keep from dieing off. It is not a new ideal or something new that has just began happening. Of course it was those who learned and adapted what was around them in their usage that move d forward and kept their people populating and numbers growing. Such as I see continuing as time goes on with people willing to adapt and keep pushign forward.

I was speaking of weak genes and those not procreating in separate and unrelated ways. If one is gay, I do not see how some could state they are for sure depriving the gene pool. Not with so many other choices out there. There is too large of a gene pool for it to be a complete detriment. IF, the gene pool were much smaller I could see it being a detriment.
Nothing is certain in live and I am really glad about that it keeps life interesting for me. Perhaps some get benefits and others get killed of no way of telling beforehand but thats with every disaster ever happening. If you care about the poisons we tend to leak in nature just try to minimize it from your own side  there is sadly nothing more you can do about it. There will be a lot more human disasters still coming.

Medicine to cure something or relief pain are fine in my view. Animals tend to eat beneficial herbs to when they notice something isn't right. I personally am against vaccinations or genetic meddling. And that really is my only part on technological ground I am against for the time being. I am sure humanity thinks up something even more bolder in my view in a few years.

On the last part I will hold my opinion as you asked to move on and I will respect that. Your welcome to continue that discussion with me but in interest of the topic it might be better to use the personal message system for it. In truth though the underlying thought isn't really far from what I am thinking but my approach to it differs.
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paindancer
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« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2011, 10:07:15 am »

Or continue here....

http://www.atlantavampirealliance.com/forum/index.php?topic=2382.0

Maybe some mod can fix the typo in the title
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Paindancer
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« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2011, 11:42:58 am »

Ahhhh..as a note..I did not cross out that bit in your post PD.....Huh??? Not sure who did and why, unless to let you know it was fixed?Huh?
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paindancer
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« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2011, 12:08:07 pm »

Fixed.

Made a typo in the new the title.

Damn Droid typos and my need to post at work (in entitled.. 65 hours a week, 10 days at a time.)
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Paindancer
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« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2011, 12:25:08 pm »

Quote
Nothing is certain in live and I am really glad about that it keeps life interesting for me. Perhaps some get benefits and others get killed of no way of telling beforehand but thats with every disaster ever happening. If you care about the poisons we tend to leak in nature just try to minimize it from your own side  there is sadly nothing more you can do about it. There will be a lot more human disasters still coming.
 

Oh I do what I can on my end as does the community I live in. We all escaped out here for peace and quiet and to get back to our not so chemical filled roots really. As I am also sure there are many more human made disasters on the horizon, I am glad to be as far as possible away from so much civilization that maybe the impact will be nothing here. We are the only species to create things in which would eradicate ourselves and other life forms and pat ourselves on the back for it. Then become surprised when those things begin to fail and threaten our lives. -sighs-
My home away from everything and everyone..picture taken while on the back of a 16hh horse.

Quote
Medicine to cure something or relief pain are fine in my view. Animals tend to eat beneficial herbs to when they notice something isn't right. I personally am against vaccinations or genetic meddling. And that really is my only part on technological ground I am against for the time being. I am sure humanity thinks up something even more bolder in my view in a few years.   

Oh I do agree. Which is how many humans figured out what could be used on humans. Though I am sure much of the medicinal types of plants were trial and error or discovered by mistake. What I find unnerving about many vaccines is that they can cause just as much if not more problems than they help! I personally had to be escorted by fellow officers when I was forced to get Heppatitis vaccine shots. FEH...I am still so angry about that. I really wish the police department I worked for would have made some allowance for those of us who are not so apt to get shots for everything under the sun.

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RKCoon
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« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2011, 02:24:31 pm »

And up beside her rides John Wayne.... :p
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Automotive Necromancer
paindancer
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« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2011, 06:49:53 pm »

Pretty, but I would starve energetically.

I am a creature of my environment, and I ambient of the pulse of the city, the electric currents running like an oversized nervous system, traffic on freeways like the blood in the vein.  Sounds silly, but in nature, I feel like I am holding my breath, unless I am at a really strong nexus like big bear lodge.

Weird, huh.

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Paindancer
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legardored
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« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2011, 08:07:49 am »

Lovely picture Nadia. Lets hope humanity can keep its greedy paws of your area. We sadly do not have a lot of forest left. Concrete jungle with a few trees so the city can have a green eco label. Which is something I really get annoyed by with a passion. In here everything has to be labeled green to just sell. Green energy, green cars , green appliances I am surprised we don't get a energy label on birth yet. If it really was to help nature I wouldn't be against it. But its one big marketing scam. Which the majority buys, just so they can buy more and more with the excuse its not as bad for nature anyway.

I don't find it weird that someone likes the city environment. Especially if your reliant on people there energy. Though for some its also just personal taste. I for example can't stand being on or near the water and dislike sunny days. where as you can find me taking long strolls in a rain storm or even better during thunder, hail storms.

I always say the weirdest people in the world are the ones calling themselves normal.
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Catori
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« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2011, 01:33:56 pm »

@RK..LOL...nah..no John Wayne. If so I would have him break the stupid Paso Fino for me LOL. Seems from the Paso forum I belong to, he is grooming me like he would a horse he loves that is a part of his herd...AAAACCCCCCKKKKKK I MUST elevate myself as herd LEADER or I will be screwed training and behavior wise with him. Mmmmm...he is the one you keep threatening to turn into hamburger because of his kicking me. The light tan one with black mane and tail.

@PD, I can understand that as far as you are concerned. Personally, I NEED to be far away from the hub bub. I get edgy and really angry and such. I just really cannot take it as an empath and psychic. Too much at once is a very nasty overload on me. So to me, riding out to where I can find a nice spot to look out over huge rolling hills and such....perfect peace for me and very stabilizing and grounding. I HAVE to have that.

@Legardored, where I live the people here want land and to be away from it all or they have huge farms. Also, there is NO easy way to get to my county here. No interstate exit or anything. It is all backroads and tiny little 2 way highways. So no big companies want to build out here as there is no quick and easy access to the area. Our community has no want for an interstate exit because we know with it, it brings too much concrete jungle type expansion. We may be one of the poorest communities in the state because of it, but the alternative is just NOT what we are willing to trade off for. So we mostly farm and sell what we grow and raise and work in larger communities with high pay. As you, we all despise and laugh at the "city idiots" that plant one tree and pat themselves on the back for being "green". Feh...they would not know green living if it bit them on the butt. LMAO...what makes it even funnier...is they usually plant DOGWOODS....which are the most allergy producing tree around besides pine. Then they cry because of constant allergy problems in the spring!!!!! Well duh...look at what you idiots plant to say you are green!!!!!
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« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2011, 02:02:41 am »

@nadia
lol... didnt i tell ya the paso was in love?
i guess the "city boy" knows a few things about them ....lmao
michelle and i had a bunch (Cool of German Warmbloods remember..
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