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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  03.16.11 - Blood Is Not Psi! - Zerochan 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 03.16.11 - Blood Is Not Psi! - Zerochan  (Read 24538 times)
RKCoon
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« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2011, 09:45:17 pm »


Physiological = Not a vampire. Physiological = Impaired Human.



Two things i love about this - One, how glaringly flawed it is, two, how people are eating it up as logical and reasonable.

Well, let me bust that dysfunctional myth with but a couple simple questions --

Do we call being black, Asian, Caucasian, or other forms of humanity to be flawed?

Do we call people that are gay, lesbian, bi, or transgendered flawed?

NO. Because they are not. Implying so reveals ones self to be at best ignorant, at worst, glaringly hateful to those unlike themselves - and even occasionally, hateful of those LIKE themselves.   No one gets to choose what color of skin they are born with, and while some would argue the point, no one gets to choose their sexuality.   For people to say that vampirism, then, is a flaw - when the simple fact is we do not KNOW either way - is also flawed, hypocritical, and damned ignorant.


But hey, you obviously wanted to be called out, so there ya go.

 For the record - pseudo-intellectual arguments only reveal a lack thereof.
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2011, 08:26:25 am »

My view is we need to encourage personal exploration, and discourage all the drama and nay sayers
I think there is really not a problem in drama or nay sayers its how you personally deal with them. All views, opinions are valuable, even when they only show you how not to respond to situations or debates. You are still learning out of it. The only way you can discourage over the top behaviour is by not giving them any satisfaction out of it. When you acknowledge that they are a problem you give them power and attention. Lets rather do something usefull with our time or keep them for when we need entertainment.

Do we call being black, Asian, Caucasian, or other forms of humanity to be flawed?
No because that has mostly to do with melanogenesis and with evolution/genetics and migration.

Quote
Do we call people that are gay, lesbian, bi, or transgendered flawed?
If we look at how they are as person or how they function in society, than they are not flawed.
However if we look at the natural behaviour that all animals should have. Than any being who is not procreating or are restricting themselves with a single partner are behaving against natural instinct and are flawed.

Now before any of you jump on the flamewagon you have to understand that any being is already flawed. And out of all animals we are the most flawed. It is rather simple logic, lets take humans as example. If there would be any humans that are flawless, than they wouldn't need to adapt,learn evolve. We wouldn't have to eat think or talk or breathe We would simply have to stop existing to be flawless. Still as I mentioned we are more flawed than other animals.

We are the only species who activly kill our own kind and restrict our own evolution. We hardly build a natural resistance to diseases anymore because we rely on medication vacination. How cruel it may sound letting the weak survive is not the smartest move a specie can do. And there are alot of things we invented that will likely kill ourselves as a species. I am not concerned with that however self preservation is a basic instinct, concerns about others are a moral code.


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NO. Because they are not. Implying so reveals ones self to be at best ignorant, at worst, glaringly hateful to those unlike themselves - and even occasionally, hateful of those LIKE themselves.
So basicly your stating if we do not follow your view on this we are hatefull. I will take that as a compliment than.

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For people to say that vampirism, then, is a flaw - when the simple fact is we do not KNOW either way - is also flawed, hypocritical, and damned ignorant.
I call it a flaw of nature I consider myself overall a flaw of nature to. So I cant call that hypocritical and I can't call myself neither unaware of what I am saying. I do not get it why the word flawed is being viewed so negativly isn't it subjective? No one is right or wrong its what you make of it yourself.
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Catori
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2011, 01:47:33 pm »

Quote
If we look at how they are as person or how they func-tion in society, than they are not flawed.
However if we look at the natural behaviour that all animals should have. Than any being who is not procreating or are restricting themselves with a single partner are behaving against natural instinct and are flawed.
 



There are a good bit of animal species that are abundantly found in the wild with no assistance from man who have only one partner in a lifetime. On the flip side, there are many who do not have just ONE partner, but will breed with everything possible that are on endangered species lists and are having to be assisted by man to try to save the species as a whole.

On to the whole choosing a partner you cannot procreate with, it has been widely documented by those who practice animal husbandry that there ARE animals who are gay. Some who are not only gay, but will reject their own species for a different species.  I have a prime example at my house. A champion Thoroughbred-Quarter Horse barrel racer, who if I am correct, still holds one of the fastest run times in the U.S. ON MY PROPERTY. A horse to be sure needs to have progeny to pass on his fantastic sports horse genetics! A temperament to die for, excellent when it comes to training, highly responsive, BEAUTIFUL health,PERFECT in EVERY way. Almost. He prefers male horses and hates mares. Totally gay. Gelded due to this. Still attacks and wants nothing to do with mares for the most part. He CAN learn to co-exist, but hates every tiny inch of a mare but is ALL over other male horses. At least the gelding stopped him from trying to mate with male horses. 

 A goat farmer I know has a BEAUTIFUL Nubian buck. Wins shows and is just perfect,except,he hates female goats. Despises them. Does not care too much for other male goats, but is kinder to them. His love interest? Human MEN. Yeah, human men gotta be careful around this Buck or he WILL try to get some. So they have to use him to reproduce via AI. NONE of his progeny are like he is as far as sexual preferences,he is just a gay goat who prefers human men.
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RKCoon
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2011, 02:21:31 pm »

Nicely put Nadia, but I suspect that legardored is deliberately trying to obscure my point.   While it is granted we do not know weather vampirism is mental or physical (or both or even potentially neither), It is at least somewhat safe to say that vampirism is not exactly what we choose to be. And while it may be seen as something we choose to do - similar to how a gay or lesbian or bi person chooses what person they sleep with  (disregarding instinctual attraction to the person they are choosing to sleep with)  - people like to paint vampirism in the same way religious fundies like to paint the LGBT community - being flawed persons needing to be cured.

This is not the case, despite what some individuals might say. No one has any proof that it is, and its not likely to change anytime soon.

BTW, for the record - we are NOT the only species that actively kills itself. Any predator will hunt and kill its own kind, even creatures 'lower on the food chain' (chickens come to mind) will kill and eat their own kind. Try a bit of education first before speakin, eh?   But, you do, legar, sum up yourself nicely with the statement you yourself made that you are a hateful being.  Really, you start to remind me of certain other individuals around here.
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2011, 02:32:11 pm »

-snkr- You have remembered my griping about the darned chickens here killing each other and disfiguring each other and eating each other if they get loose and mingle incorrectly huh? But yes...we are not the only species to do such. Chickens, dogs, horses, cattle, and so on and so forth. I even have Guinea fowl I keep here to not only keep the bug population down and to screech bloody murder about intruders to warn everyone here...but they will also attack and kill snakes, attack and try to kill hawks and so on. I use my turkey tom as an attack bird for wandering dogs and cats even. About a 5 to 6 foot wingspan with claws and pretty nasty beak to boot, he can and will kill wandering mischievous canines and felines. So it is not just humans who will kill one another and other species.
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legardored
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2011, 03:13:41 pm »

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Nicely put Nadia, but I suspect that legardored is deliberately trying to obscure my point. While it is granted we do not know weather vampirism is mental or physical (or both or even potentially neither), It is at least somewhat safe to say that vampirism is not exactly what we choose to be. And while it may be seen as something we choose to do - similar to how a gay or lesbian or bi person chooses what person they sleep with  (disregarding instinctual attraction to the person they are choosing to sleep with)  - people like to paint vampirism in the same way religious fundies like to paint the LGBT community - being flawed persons needing to be cured.
Never was my intention to obscure any point but your free to think what you want off-course. I call it healthy debate with some entertainment on the sideline. As far as I know I did not choose vampirism myself or I am to blind to see it always keep options open the mind is a powerful thing. I do not consider flawed anything bad so if someone wants to be ever cured or not is not in my interest. We will always keep flaws maybe instead of seeing them only as that we could learn to use them to our advantage.


Quote
BTW, for the record - we are NOT the only species that actively kills itself. Any predator will hunt and kill its own kind, even creatures 'lower on the food chain' (chickens come to mind) will kill and eat their own kind. Try a bit of education first before speakin, eh?
As I stated: We are the only species who activly kill our own kind and restrict our own evolution. never said no animal kills another. Actually that in itself is normal behavior weeding the weak out of the strong or the sick. However I can't think of any other animal that purposely weakens its own kind making it more easy to get extinct. Hmm what kind of education you mean? I do know I truly should get more grammar lesson but can't be bothered.

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But, you do, legar, sum up yourself nicely with the statement you yourself made that you are a hateful being. Really, you start to remind me of certain other individuals around here.
Your words and view not mine. I do not believe in hate, love good or bad It is all based on the moment for me. So either way how anyone sees me is mostly what they want to see or how I play a act to them. usually the latter seeing as how that can be beneficial. Always nice to relive memories isn't it? 

Quote
There are a good bit of animal species that are abundantly found in the wild with no assistance from man who have only one partner in a lifetime. On the flip side, there are many who do not have just ONE partner, but will breed with everything possible that are on endangered species lists and are having to be assisted by man to try to save the species as a whole.

On to the whole choosing a partner you cannot procreate with, it has been widely documented by those who practice animal husbandry that there ARE animals who are gay. Some who are not only gay, but will reject their own species for a different species.  I have a prime example at my house. A champion Thoroughbred-Quarter Horse barrel racer, who if I am correct, still holds one of the fastest run times in the U.S. ON MY PROPERTY. A horse to be sure needs to have progeny to pass on his fantastic sports horse genetics! A temperament to die for, excellent when it comes to training, highly responsive, BEAUTIFUL health,PERFECT in EVERY way. Almost. He prefers male horses and hates mares. Totally gay. Gelded due to this. Still attacks and wants nothing to do with mares for the most part. He CAN learn to co-exist, but hates every tiny inch of a mare but is ALL over other male horses. At least the gelding stopped him from trying to mate with male horses. 

 A goat farmer I know has a BEAUTIFUL Nubian buck. Wins shows and is just perfect,except,he hates female goats. Despises them. Does not care too much for other male goats, but is kinder to them. His love interest? Human MEN. Yeah, human men gotta be careful around this Buck or he WILL try to get some. So they have to use him to reproduce via AI. NONE of his progeny are like he is as far as sexual preferences,he is just a gay goat who prefers human men.
Yet if all of the species would go gay the species would die out, without any aid of artificial means which is not natural. Lovely story though. I have nothing against a persons sexual interest but out of natures aspect its a sure way for a species to die out. I do not consider gay animals anymore flawed than a straight animal. We all are flawed in my perspective, humans however are a special case compared to other animals. We create extra flaws and I think sexual orientation is the least of our worries.


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CJ!
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2011, 11:24:49 pm »

Wow! It never used to matter in the VC/OVC, what method you chose to use, to "feed" your vampiric needs. It only mattered that people had the "need" and it needed to be fulfilled. What was important, is that you used common sense and didn't hurt anyone in the process of fulfilling your needs. What was important, was learning all the different methods ( to safely feed as well as learning methods that could be the most advantageous for the vampire), that through personal experiences, people were able to share with the community. We are all in the same boat, more or less.

In this quote there is a lot of truth in terms of our commonalities. When Dark Rose speaks of the only thing mattering is that people had the need and the fulfillment of that need to extend on that further to argue over which group owns the term vampire is useless. For one reason or another sanguinarian and psi alike found the label fitting to them and built communities around it.

However in the same quote contains content on what also divides us. Despite both groups identification to the label "vampire" we are not in the same boat. The sanguinarian and the psi experiences are very different and when people attempt unifying theories about the entire vampire community one side of the aisle is bound to get pissed because in effect they are speaking on behalf of a group they don't belong to.

What the community needs to progress is not a set of rules or a fluffy idea of unity but rather a mutual understanding of the vast difference between sanguinarian and psi. When the vampire community became online it was certainly understandable how one interpretation of vampirism was turned on its head when a very different interpretation of vampirism claimed ownership of the title. But now more or less most sanguinarians and psis found vampirism to be a label that fit and we have had over a decade of proximity near each other. We are familiar with each other to the point where our differences can be respected and from that mutual understanding work together toward similar goals and support each other toward our seperate goals.
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Catori
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2011, 11:46:04 pm »

Quote
Yet if all of the species would go gay the species would die out, without any aid of artificial means which is not natural. Lovely story though. I have nothing against a persons sexual interest but out of natures aspect its a sure way for a species to die out. I do not consider gay animals anymore flawed than a straight animal. We all are flawed in my perspective, humans however are a special case compared to other animals. We create extra flaws and I think sexual orientation is the least of our worries. 

But who said any species would go completely gay? How has it been detrimental thus for for those who are gay towards their species. Please, point to a species that is now defunct or near so because of sexual orientation. I implore you to point a species out that it has hindered in such a manner. The human race is in such a horrible state itself due to over population and due to this our natural resources are quickly becoming depleted. So show me how sexual orientation is detrimental to the human race at all at this point and time. At that point I will concur that it is a flaw, which is a word generally used in a negative manner. So what baptist church do you attend?
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legardored
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« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2011, 07:19:54 am »

Wow! It never used to matter in the VC/OVC, what method you chose to use, to "feed" your vampiric needs. It only mattered that people had the "need" and it needed to be fulfilled. What was important, is that you used common sense and didn't hurt anyone in the process of fulfilling your needs. What was important, was learning all the different methods ( to safely feed as well as learning methods that could be the most advantageous for the vampire), that through personal experiences, people were able to share with the community. We are all in the same boat, more or less.

In this quote there is a lot of truth in terms of our commonalities. When Dark Rose speaks of the only thing mattering is that people had the need and the fulfillment of that need to extend on that further to argue over which group owns the term vampire is useless. For one reason or another sanguinarian and psi alike found the label fitting to them and built communities around it.

However in the same quote contains content on what also divides us. Despite both groups identification to the label "vampire" we are not in the same boat. The sanguinarian and the psi experiences are very different and when people attempt unifying theories about the entire vampire community one side of the aisle is bound to get pissed because in effect they are speaking on behalf of a group they don't belong to.

What the community needs to progress is not a set of rules or a fluffy idea of unity but rather a mutual understanding of the vast difference between sanguinarian and psi. When the vampire community became online it was certainly understandable how one interpretation of vampirism was turned on its head when a very different interpretation of vampirism claimed ownership of the title. But now more or less most sanguinarians and psis found vampirism to be a label that fit and we have had over a decade of proximity near each other. We are familiar with each other to the point where our differences can be respected and from that mutual understanding work together toward similar goals and support each other toward our seperate goals.
There is a lot of wisdom in darkrose words, though I personally do not agree on that the experiences are very different. Because as darkrose stated the only thing that mattered was that we needed to safely feed. However when people see themselves as something different they sometimes get the idea they are better than others. When a some of those people meet and start using the same label, they start to feel there position is being challenged. To me its just territorial behavior from a few. We all different, but that has more to do with us being humans, than us being sang psi or hybrids.

Quote from: Nadia
But who said any species would go completely gay? How has it been detrimental thus for for those who are gay towards their species. Please, point to a species that is now defunct or near so because of sexual orientation. I implore you to point a species out that it has hindered in such a manner.
Natural instinct is self preservation and reproduction of its own kind. The reason no species got defunct based on sexual preference is because that most animals have that natural instinct and follow it. Thats the idea of having female, male or hermaphrodites to reproduce some species.

Quote from: Nadia
The human race is in such a horrible state itself due to over population and due to this our natural resources are quickly becoming depleted.
Overpopulation happens because almost all our natural enemies are extinct. We care for the weak we think they have a right to survive that is some moral we thought up. Instead of using our instincts that maybe weak genes aren't a good idea to keep around. Thanks to this moral we are basically slowly killing ourselves. Depletion of natural resources to me is a some kind of fancy illusion we have seeing as nature has processes to recover itself. I think mother nature has proven that its more than capable of taking care of itself unlike us. Humans with our few thousand years against nature with possibly a few billion years who would you put your money on? Species die out, normally nature takes care of it we are just so kind to help her killing ourselves. We try to adapt our environment for our needs because we hardly adapt ourselves anymore. That is a sign of a weak species in my opinion. Ironically we are used to call it progress.

Quote from: Nadia
So show me how sexual orientation is detrimental to the human race at all at this point and time. At that point I will concur that it is a flaw, which is a word generally used in a negative manner. So what baptist church do you attend?
I never said sexual orientation is something detrimental to us humans. I think (as already stated) we are all flawed. Trying to point out one flaw is worse than another is a waste of someones time in my opinion. If someone wants to see the word flawed as something negative they should by all means do so. Thats not my concern, its peoples own interpretation they can blame for that. If people want to see something negative they can find it in the most trivial things and vice versa. On your last question I am not religious as in it could be defined by some label. It evolves, changes with experience situations and time. Your happy to label it if that gives you comfort or reinforces your believes. Labels don't hold any value to me.

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paindancer
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« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2011, 09:44:09 am »

Leg,

you are adopting a very nietzschian type of thought process, and despite its validity in a specian sense, western thought has little stomach for it.  We have a me first mentality, and that prioritizes emotional comfort over  genetic optimization.

We are evolving still, there is not doubt to it.  We are evolving to be very dependant on the environment as we have shaped it via technology.  Do I think it is grand we are indeed weakening our genetic stock?  Nope, but there are euegenics groups who do seek to try to counter this, and I think even some extreeme vampric groups do the same (very extreeme).

That said, increases in homosexuality and lethal STDs do seem to go hand in hand with overpopulation.  Blue tongue for deer is an example (nadia, correct me if I am wrong.. I have a feeling this is your area of expertice, not mine)

I dont think, anyone ever has tried to say that such a definition makes the person inferior or weak or lesser, etc.  It is simply are echo of what a theory which may describe a subset of folks back at you in medical terms.

I think that is part of the problem.. you are reacting strongly as if you were attacked when they describe somethign a certain way.

A:  "Vampirism may be casued by a physical condition, in the blood"
B:  "So, you are saying for a subset of people, there may be a genetic disease or chemical imbalance at play?"
A:  "OMG how DARE you say vampires are diseased!!!!!!!  You HATE bunnies and kittens!!!!!  Die!"

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Paindancer
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« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2011, 02:13:06 pm »

Yes, PD, you are correct. BTD is an insect borne disease that attacks many types of ruminates. Sheep seem to be the worst for catching it, though deer are very apt to catch it as well.

As far as the rest...I DO agree we are weakening our genetic pool through our extreme measures of keeping the weak alive. That is not how a species remains healthy. Though I would like to see someone step forward and call for allowing the weak to die or not be allowed to reproduce to the masses while tagging them with the whole"But they are too flawed" line. The problem is that humans are humans are humans. Will not work. We are far too run by our emotions.

I am also not stating that mother nature is not a force to be reckoned with, but with the continued population growth of the human species and it's insane need to have every business possible within almost walking distance of their homes, we are poisoning our waters, the animals who live in the waters, killing off a lot of the wildlife and decimating much of our swamps, woodlands and such. We are indeed depleting our resources at this point and time. It would take time and for humans to CEASE their concrete jungle growth and to stop using things that pollute everything around them for mother nature to recover. Let us take the nuclear meltdowns in Japan and the fact we are seeing so called "safe" amounts of radiation in our waters here in the U.S. as an example. How many hundreds of years is that going to take mother nature to recover from,Leg? Trust me, I know...I have spent my whole adult life running FROM growth, "progress", and the insanities that the human race brings upon itself with it's trivial "needs". While we are at it, care for a glass of goat's milk? I am a completely organic farmer who is also in the process of becoming listed with the Department Of Agriculture as such. I also let the weak here die. They have no place. IOW...don't think I don't know what I am talking about. I really am not some imbecile sitting at a computer with absolutely no sense of knowing what they are talking about. I am only debating someone's view on some things and trust me, I am holding back because someone who is a friend of yours asked me to,Leg, so drop some of your better than thou belittling attitude. Let us move on now...

You have the same mindset as many Christians I have run into that humans are born flawed and soiled. Hence the negative connotations your wording brings to mind. Add on you do seem very convinced that it is some horrible thing that will decimate all species and hinders them greatly....I do in fact take issue with what you have said. If we take a look through history, it seems same sex preferences have hindered NOTHING. Even with such happening, I see no drop or detriment to any species as of yet. If nothing else I see species continuing to grow and mass populate areas even with same sex preferences in play.

PD...shall we bring back Merts dead bunny for this LMFAO.
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paindancer
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« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2011, 02:57:29 pm »

Aaaak not the dead bunny.
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Paindancer
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RKCoon
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« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2011, 03:25:41 pm »


As far as the rest...I DO agree we are weakening our genetic pool through our extreme measures of keeping the weak alive. That is not how a species remains healthy. Though I would like to see someone step forward and call for allowing the weak to die or not be allowed to reproduce to the masses while tagging them with the whole"But they are too flawed" line. The problem is that humans are humans are humans. Will not work. We are far too run by our emotions.


Several groups have tried that directly - the Nazis being one group. Religion, on the other hand, does so a bit indirectly - by 'leaving it in gods hands'.
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Catori
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« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2011, 03:33:08 pm »

They have also failed miserably. My point is though, I would like to see Leg do so to the masses in the way that he is posting here. As PD pointed out, a Nietzschian approach will NOT go over at all in the western world.
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paindancer
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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2011, 04:12:42 pm »

Not for the sake of global survival, no.

But wrap it up in a nice commercial package and market it....


" pregnant?  Give your child every chance the deserve!  At Genomcorp, we can screen and correct for a number of diseases in utero.  Please ask about our executive package to splice in enhanced intellect, proven to give your child an edge in over 4900 successful cases."

Easily in our lifetime, eugenics for the upper class.
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Paindancer
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