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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  A Sanguinarian Treatise: An Argument For Partition From The Vampire Community 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: A Sanguinarian Treatise: An Argument For Partition From The Vampire Community  (Read 77354 times)
childofthespiral
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« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2011, 03:16:29 PM »

CJ made it pretty clear in her original post, despite the pointless over-wording, that psis aren't real because their need is metaphysical, and anything metaphysical is all made up.

Coon has been making it pretty clear that since psi's need isn't currently scientifically provable, and that because sangs risk their lives every time they drink blood (because, you know, AIDS and hepatitis and pregnancy during sexual feeding AREN'T an issue) and in his words "a psi only takes a risk when they open their mouth".

Did you know that your entire post is a link?

That's all.
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LadyOfPales
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ITS A SPY


« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2011, 05:00:51 PM »

CJ made it pretty clear in her original post, despite the pointless over-wording, that psis aren't real because their need is metaphysical, and anything metaphysical is all made up.

Coon has been making it pretty clear that since psi's need isn't currently scientifically provable, and that because sangs risk their lives every time they drink blood (because, you know, AIDS and hepatitis and pregnancy during sexual feeding AREN'T an issue) and in his words "a psi only takes a risk when they open their mouth".

Did you know that your entire post is a link?

That's all.

As far as the scientific community handles it, it isn't real because it hasn't been proven. We need to work with what we (we as in sanguine, not psionic) can actually use with our 5 senses instead of our feelings. CJ! wasn't trying to say that psi needs weren't real, she said that they can't be proven as real (yet, if that satisfies you) and therefore can't be recognized in a scientific standard.
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sphynxcatvp
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« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2011, 05:09:51 PM »

Quote from: childofthespiral
Did you know that your entire post is a link? That's all.

Erp. No, I didn't. Sad I logged in to fix it, and I guess one of the mods fixed that already for me? It should be more readable now.



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SangSavvy
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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2011, 05:19:47 PM »

Segregation is not required to figure out what "makes us tick".  And it would only cause more disrepair and discontinuity, as well as impressions and perpetuation of bias.  I think for social standards, having a section for each major type of vampire in any given forum is great, for the variations of each class to relate to others.  

Psi or Sang, we are humans first.  And humans interact and exchange energy all the time.  To say anything otherwise is foolish.  That's my opinion.  
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childofthespiral
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2011, 06:19:12 PM »

As far as the scientific community handles it, it isn't real because it hasn't been proven. We need to work with what we (we as in sanguine, not psionic) can actually use with our 5 senses instead of our feelings. CJ! wasn't trying to say that psi needs weren't real, she said that they can't be proven as real (yet, if that satisfies you) and therefore can't be recognized in a scientific standard.
~

CJ was also saying that psis are the specific reason why sang aren't being taken seriously, and that separating sangs and psis is the only way to get sangs any recognition from the scientific community. Later on she changed her wording to disregard the word vampire, which to me would be more of the reason why more serious research hasn't yet been done.
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paindancer
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« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2011, 09:00:59 PM »

I suppose there are two distinct schools of thought here:

1)   Vampirism is a biological/physical issue.
2)   Vampirism is a metaphysical issue.

I can see CJs perspective that they want to weed out the psis whom, from their perspective, are fakers as vampirism is a biological condition.

Considering that currently, my body is in so much pain because it is convinced it is in the wrong shape, I would say there is a metaphysical issue at play.  Metaphysical or perhaps meta-science in that science cannot capture what ails me.

Of course.. on big issue I think the VC gets into is the assumption that anyone who claims vamprie is the same thing.   I think.. vampirism is a method.. not a definition.  Pranivore might be more accurate for myself. 
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Paindancer
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RKCoon
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« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2011, 10:18:49 PM »

I suggest, spiral, you refrain from putting words in my mouth. I did not state that sex was without risk, In fact, I stated that of all the self titled psis out there, the only one that puts themselves at ANY risk are those that engage in sex; that said, I also pointed out that such risks are manageable and somewhat reduced when compared to consuming blood.   However, THAT risk, the risk of STD's while engaged in sex, is precisely the same risk every OTHER person that has sex takes, risks which these self titled feeders would be engaging in weather they claimed to be feeding or not.

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Automotive Necromancer
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sorry, but my "Givafuk" is broken


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« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2011, 11:12:30 PM »

It still seems that the assumptions being made that psi vampires are doing their best to prove themselves better than sangs, or disprove sangs altogether, are being made based on a very small number of sangs. As to whether or not some psis are trying to do this... well, I've read some of the articles written by Sappho Wolf, but other than that I haven't seen it.
Yes, some psi vampires take energy without consent, but many do not. I don't. I cannot say that I never have. When I was a teenager with no access to any kind of information on vampirism, I had no idea there was such a thing as donors who would be willing to give of themselves in that way. I did my best not to feed and would literally feed only once every month or longer, and suffered horrible debilitating migraines as a result. When I gathered energy, I did not get these migraines. I could actually enjoy vision during my waking hours. Did I enjoy taking energy without permission? Hell no! If I did then why would I put myself through so much suffering by not feeding? However once I learned about the OVC and read about some vampires' ability to elemental feed, I figured I would try it and see if it would work for me... the end result being that if it did I wouldn't have to take others energy. In the four years since I first attempted it I've only been successful 3 times. I am extremely lucky that my husband is my willing donor.

I also want to ask why should we assume that a sang is more vampire than a psi because they're taking real physical risk? If a sang is smart and responsible, and gets their donor tested regularly, and engages in safer bloodletting practices, then there is very little risk involved. From what I've read, the human stomach destroys most blood borne pathogens, so it seems to me that drinking blood is no more dangerous for a sang than having sex is for a psi. Remember, condoms aren't guaranteed, and a mouthful of blood will never end in an unwanted pregnancy.
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RKCoon
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« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2011, 12:40:26 AM »

Your quote makes it unclear weather the second paragraph is you or spiral, but either way, something needs clarifying -- While it is true that stomach acids do destroy most virii, the fact remains, when drinking blood, it has to pass by the lips, teeth, gums, tongue, throat and esophagus - any of which can easily absorb a virus if there is any damage/abrasions/similar to them - ergo, the risk is higher, not lower, of contraction.  I am not sure which of you made that comment, but some further medical education is in order.
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sorry, but my "Givafuk" is broken


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« Reply #84 on: January 07, 2011, 12:45:31 AM »

soz RK
i was stating the Civil things only... the rest was her's
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paindancer
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« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2011, 07:29:01 AM »

I suggest, spiral, you refrain from putting words in my mouth. I did not state that sex was without risk, In fact, I stated that of all the self titled psis out there, the only one that puts themselves at ANY risk are those that engage in sex; that said, I also pointed out that such risks are manageable and somewhat reduced when compared to consuming blood.   However, THAT risk, the risk of STD's while engaged in sex, is precisely the same risk every OTHER person that has sex takes, risks which these self titled feeders would be engaging in weather they claimed to be feeding or not.



I read your posts several times and the context led me to the same conclusion so I dont think the fault is spiral's.  You are intentionaly confrontational in your posting style... which will drown out subtle points like the one you clarified. 

There are specific cases which may disagree with your statement however, such as sexual feeders who need a variety of patterns to source from, greatly complicating relationships and emotional well being.  I will agree, Sangs probably lead the pack when it comes to physical risk factors.. but conversely, I have also seen the physical effects of not feeding from some pranics be more acute than sangs.  (I have never heard of a sang experincing the level of pain from ghost limbs that I do, for example)
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Paindancer
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Belfazaar
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« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2011, 04:40:23 PM »

First... To clear a few things up...

1) I do NOT believe that all psys feel that "sangs are psys on training wheels", yet it has been more than 25 years of fighting the same overwashed shit that has been perpetually swept under the rug that has caused this fracture.  People have always tried to sweep this under the rug with phrases like "making a mountain out of a mole hill"...  When it happens by the SAME voices across EVERY board, it is not making a mountain out of a mole hill... It is a problem.  One that we as a community NEED to deal with.  We can only do that if we stand together.

2)  Sangs DO need a place where they can gather and discuss things.  Like it or not there are places for every other group of vampire out there, so why can't we have it?  Why does it have to be seen as sangs leaving the community instead of sangs creating a more sang oriented space?  I, for one, don't plan on pulling out of anything simply because of a few stupid people who want to perpetuate the rift between members of the community...

3)  If you do not think that it is an issue, you've been hiding under a rock for too long.  Sorry guys and gals, but it has been pressing and pressing for years.  It ebbs and flows harsher with each passing incarnation.  The ONLY good thing is that it seems that the brighter the flames burn the quicker it burns out.  With the advent of people such as Sylvere, Sphynxcat, Lono and a whole list of others, both psy and sang, calling foul this time, it didn't burn for as long as it could have...  For which I am completely grateful...  I've been personally fighting this issue since 1985 when the first "volley" (if you will) was launched.  This is 2011... It is time for this issue to die...  Both sides have to let it go...

4) I've stated that I think we DO need medical/clinical testing, but I don't think I need a cure...  It would just be nice to know that this isn't all in my head and to possibly verify some of the "home experimentation" that I have done...  11 1/2 years of nursing have set some good parameters, but there is nothing like solid medical/clinical testing to set things at a better pace...

5)  There have been SEVERAL on BOTH sides of the line fighting this issue...  Instead of fighting separately, it would be nice to stand side by side, don't you think?
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paindancer
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« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2011, 06:41:49 PM »

First... To clear a few things up...

1) I do NOT believe that all psys feel that "sangs are psys on training wheels", yet it has been more than 25 years of fighting the same overwashed shit that has been perpetually swept under the rug that has caused this fracture.  People have always tried to sweep this under the rug with phrases like "making a mountain out of a mole hill"...  When it happens by the SAME voices across EVERY board, it is not making a mountain out of a mole hill... It is a problem.  One that we as a community NEED to deal with.  We can only do that if we stand together.

2)  Sangs DO need a place where they can gather and discuss things.  Like it or not there are places for every other group of vampire out there, so why can't we have it?  Why does it have to be seen as sangs leaving the community instead of sangs creating a more sang oriented space?  I, for one, don't plan on pulling out of anything simply because of a few stupid people who want to perpetuate the rift between members of the community...

3)  If you do not think that it is an issue, you've been hiding under a rock for too long.  Sorry guys and gals, but it has been pressing and pressing for years.  It ebbs and flows harsher with each passing incarnation.  The ONLY good thing is that it seems that the brighter the flames burn the quicker it burns out.  With the advent of people such as Sylvere, Sphynxcat, Lono and a whole list of others, both psy and sang, calling foul this time, it didn't burn for as long as it could have...  For which I am completely grateful...  I've been personally fighting this issue since 1985 when the first "volley" (if you will) was launched.  This is 2011... It is time for this issue to die...  Both sides have to let it go...

4) I've stated that I think we DO need medical/clinical testing, but I don't think I need a cure...  It would just be nice to know that this isn't all in my head and to possibly verify some of the "home experimentation" that I have done...  11 1/2 years of nursing have set some good parameters, but there is nothing like solid medical/clinical testing to set things at a better pace...

5)  There have been SEVERAL on BOTH sides of the line fighting this issue...  Instead of fighting separately, it would be nice to stand side by side, don't you think?

See, thats the point that I just dont get.

Why IS is that sangs get all butthurt over the concept that they may be more limited versions of pranics, and need a blood medium to extract what they need.  It makes sense on many levels.  I have never understood the level of animocity, outside of the threat to a fabricated internal mythology.. which can be very entrenched and powerful in the individuals psyche.

I mean.. I cant eat shrimp.  I dont hate people who can eat more things than I do... I dont write posts citing why shrimp eaters are stupid and idiotic, etc.

Just dont get it.
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Paindancer
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sphynxcatvp
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« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2011, 07:01:23 PM »

Quote from: paindancer
See, thats the point that I just dont get.

Why IS is that sangs get all butthurt over the concept that they may be more limited versions of pranics, and need a blood medium to extract what they need.  It makes sense on many levels.  I have never understood the level of animocity...

Why do some pranics get butthurt over the idea of us having *A* space of our own? Why is it misinterpreted as being "we're pulling out of the community, screw you guys"?

For that matter, why are sangs being thrown out of some vampire forums at all? (which only encourages people to step away from the community...)

Why do some pranics get butthurt over the idea that they may be wrong about sangs?

I don't get these, either.

I can answer your question, though...the number of times "blood is a metaphor for energy", "you could use energy if you just TRY", and "No, what you're really getting is the energy out of it" gets kicked around by people apparently not listening when some of us say "It. Doesn't. Work!" *really* frustrates the fsk out of us.

Pretend your a parapalegic and are stuck in a wheelchair. Wouldn't you get just a weeeee bit pissed off after a while if lots of people kept saying "Oh, just get up and walk"?

*slight edit to fix tense...sorry about that*
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Cheri
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« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2011, 08:03:00 PM »


Why IS is that sangs get all butthurt over the concept that they may be more limited versions of pranics, and need a blood medium to extract what they need.  It makes sense on many levels.  I have never understood the level of animocity, outside of the threat to a fabricated internal mythology.. which can be very entrenched and powerful in the individuals psyche.

I think it is the fact that the people constantly pushing the idea of “it is all energy” are not hearing the facts that this is simply not true for all Sangs.

As a donor to both Sang and Psi Vampires, I know there is a difference in what is being taken from me in a donation. With a few sangs, yes there has been the feeling of energy transferring while they feed. But with most there is not. With those that do not create this feeling it is a pure physical drain I get. It is nothing like the way a psi, or hybrid makes me feel during a donation.


For that matter, why are sangs being thrown out of some vampire forums at all? (which only encourages people to step away from the community...)

I have to say the number of forums where there is no blood talk allowed  is very high. It makes it hard for sangs or sang donors to even have a lot to add to the conversations in those places.  Having to watch every word you say to avoid mentioning blood, feeding on blood or blood letting is just.. well frustrating. The number of times in just the short time I have been involved in the OVC where someone comes seeking factual safe information on blood feeding , and not being able to tell them what they need to know, has made me want to pull my hair out.

Now I made the choice to be part of one of those sites that only allow discussion on energy feeding and such. That is my choice and I follow the rules of that site. It is the growing number of this type of restricted site that worries me.

So yes some can try to say that sangs are making a mountain out of a mole hill over this issue, but the reality is that pure sangs are being forced to either agree they only use energy out of the blood, or not say anything at all in many places on the OVC.

Why do some pranics get butthurt over the idea that they may be wrong about sangs?
And I would love to hear an answer to that question also Sphynxcat. 

I love all the vampires I have donated to over the years, sang, psi and hybrid but there is a difference in the types. Like it or not, everyone has the chance to be wrong when talking about another persons needs.
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