A Sanguinarian Treatise: An Argument For Partition From The Vampire Community

[Cheri]

I started to do a point by point reply to this . But the more I read, the more I started to see this as a well worded, with some good points, effort to shatter what tiny peace there is in the VC in general. I do agree that there needs to be open dialog and more effort by the part of the community that feels “it is all energy” to understand that this is not how many sang vampires feel.  I myself do not have enough training or experience in the metaphysical side of things to do more then guess at what is happening.

So while I personally feel this is a bad idea, I will simply address a few points that stand out to me as needing a reply.

The segment of the “Community” that would have to separate from the rest is relatively small. I do not know if there is a large enough group to actually get what the stated goals, done. 

It was stated that the science can not be done within the community, and if you look at only pure blood vampires as a group. You are most likely right, by separating from the community in general, you also leave behind a large number of the very people most likely to start those studies. We have a surprisingly large number of medical people in the general community, or that have friendly relationships with the community. I believe this is where the push for true studies will come from. If for no other reason then to show that one feeding method or another is fake, wrong or misguided. The smaller population of pure sangs on their own, is not going to have that access to the large number of medical and scientific people that we have begun to build in the general community.


The point was also made that your ability to obtain a donor is directly related to the perception of the community as a group. Sorry, but that is simply not true for most donors I know. Very few I know in real physical life, have any part in the community. And the few that would have been interested in contributing to the community in general, read stuff like this and see it as yet another reason to simply stay in the shadows. They met their vampires without knowing there was even a 'community” to be a part of. For my part, I see divides like this as one more reason that we do not have more donors in the community, I know if I were new to the entire concept of real vampires, something like this would only make me less likely to want any part of it. It sends a bad message out to any prospective donors. And hey a lot of the very donors that now donate Sang, started into the community as Psi donors. So you stand to loose a good chunk of your donor population if you separate from the community and make them choose between Sang and Psi.

You say there is nothing lost by leaving the community as it is now. I think you are wrong. I Think you will find you have lost a great deal of the very respect and chance of real discovery that you state as your goal. I wish you luck if you press forward in this. I do not believe this is the answer to the issues presented and I feel it will cause more harm then good, but I still wish you luck in it. Just do not expect this donor to make a choice between the two communities. I may be a primarily sang donor, but I am friends with many that are not sang.

You did have some valid points on some of the issues, but I Think the way it was presented makes it less likely to do more then feed flames already burning bright.

With respect,
Cheri

[childofthespiral]

Excellent points. Some I have made myself in the past and been shouted down for them. It would seem that we have a small base to start with. If you are serious on getting something going let me know; I'm a bit busy recently, but I'm sure I can find time if it meens getting to some reality again.
Also, I will respond to that first response from 'childofthespiral' as well: you touched on a major pet peeve of mine; "tl;dr." if you can't take the time to read something, or admitidatly do not understand it, why would you even waste someone's time with telling them how wrong they are? You don't even know what was said. Please turn on your brain before blindly responding as this is part of the problem causing the degradation of intelligent discussion on the Internet.

If you had continued reading my post beyond the first sentence, you would have seen the part where I said "I did my best to finish reading your post, but I still found it intolerably dense". Practice what you preach before you tell someone else they aren't using their brain okay?

Really CJ!, you could convey the exact same message without all the superflous words and showy syntax, and reach a far larger audience. If people have to verbally wade knee deep through unnecessary polysylabic words, especially in such a long article, you're going to loose the majority of your audience before you've made your point. I made it less than halfway through, not because I'm not interested, but because it's been a long day at work, and I'm not in the mood to have to operate at a top mental level simply to read an article pertaining to Sanguinarianism.

Contact us again when you've made the reading user friendly.

Yours sincerely,
~Kaiya Shadow

This is what I was talking about when I used the words "intolerably dense". the point could easily have been made in less than half the writing.

If one is serious about trying to prove that only sang vampires have a need and psi vampires are either faking it, looking for attention, are possibly sang vampires in hiding, or have some sort of disorder, then one would have a VERY hard time doing this. Like I said in my first post, good luck telling me I don't exist.
As to the post that science will probably never be able to explain why some people have a vampiric need, just remember it wasn't very long ago that infertile women had no hope of ever becoming pregnant, it would NEVER be possible... and yet just a few decades ago the very first successful in vitro fertilization was performed. That baby is now a woman in her mid 30's and there have been millions of babies conceived in this way. When the right people have the right resources and put their minds to it, they can achieve amazing results.

[Demzon]

This is what I expected to see; a smattering of 'that's a good idea' comments, and a whole bunch of 'no! I don' wana' complaints. So, here is what I see so far to respond to:
First, most that have responded have not read the entire thing thus pointing out that they are not the target audience for such an idea as they can not read a short, concise letter addressing a basic idea. also, I still do not see how some one can see them selves a qualified to render an opinion when they have not taken the time to understand what is being said. To paraphrase something Bill Mahrer said on his show once "one side says we need better data with less false information from persons carrying through a role acting scenario utilizing elements of truth while avoiding anything that would definitively show they are in such a roll, and that means removing all that have no verifiable method of transfer; and the other side says I like turtles."
Second, this undermines nothing. This, as I read it, is a call to reason and proper inquiry. I remember hearing similar complaints when the VEWRS was announced in quite a few places; now it is lauded as great work, the best study done. Why not do better studies and continue the research to more verifiable information than asking a bunch of strangers to fill in the boxes with no verification past that the subject believes this to be true?
Third, the possibility of there being a psychological explanation was addressed in this if it had been read. The idea seems to be to find out the facts rather than continuing on assumption.
Fourth, that Ouija experiment has been done time and again; as changing the orientation of the board, and changing the order of the letters without those interacting with it being able to see. Every time it produces the same nothing, unless the orientation is returned to where the user thought everything was. Ouija is, at best, the same a the Rorschach test; a study of what the person in really thinking with the least amount of filter possible.
Fifth, it is necessary to remove those with out verifiable intake of anything to remove possible contamination of the data. If there is not a measure of x amount of substance a produces  y reaction but x of substance z is nul or reaction b there is no validity to the experiment. if you can find a way to measure chi definitively then it would be a break through in many ways. Good luck with that though; I tried for a long time. Also, I challenge you to tell me some other way of "psi feeding" that does not involve "concentrating on the source and remove all other things from your mind, then feel the energy moving over." This is that same instruction given for meditation for beginners; find an object to concentrate on to the occlusion of all else, and feel the (insert belief system's energy type here) flowing around you. This is also the same method to start out in hypnosis either by another or self. Now, that said; I do think that there might be something to the Traditional Chinese Medical concept of chi. I do not however confuse that with verified science as it is not verified by the standard scientific method in use today; even by those certified TCM. There have been hints, but not enough to call it verification.

[Demzon]

Excellent points. Some I have made myself in the past and been shouted down for them. It would seem that we have a small base to start with. If you are serious on getting something going let me know; I'm a bit busy recently, but I'm sure I can find time if it meens getting to some reality again.
Also, I will respond to that first response from 'childofthespiral' as well: you touched on a major pet peeve of mine; "tl;dr." if you can't take the time to read something, or admitidatly do not understand it, why would you even waste someone's time with telling them how wrong they are? You don't even know what was said. Please turn on your brain before blindly responding as this is part of the problem causing the degradation of intelligent discussion on the Internet.

If you had continued reading my post beyond the first sentence, you would have seen the part where I said "I did my best to finish reading your post, but I still found it intolerably dense". Practice what you preach before you tell someone else they aren't using their brain okay?

Really CJ!, you could convey the exact same message without all the superflous words and showy syntax, and reach a far larger audience. If people have to verbally wade knee deep through unnecessary polysylabic words, especially in such a long article, you're going to loose the majority of your audience before you've made your point. I made it less than halfway through, not because I'm not interested, but because it's been a long day at work, and I'm not in the mood to have to operate at a top mental level simply to read an article pertaining to Sanguinarianism.

Contact us again when you've made the reading user friendly.

Yours sincerely,
~Kaiya Shadow

This is what I was talking about when I used the words "intolerably dense". the point could easily have been made in less than half the writing.

If one is serious about trying to prove that only sang vampires have a need and psi vampires are either faking it, looking for attention, are possibly sang vampires in hiding, or have some sort of disorder, then one would have a VERY hard time doing this. Like I said in my first post, good luck telling me I don't exist.
As to the post that science will probably never be able to explain why some people have a vampiric need, just remember it wasn't very long ago that infertile women had no hope of ever becoming pregnant, it would NEVER be possible... and yet just a few decades ago the very first successful in vitro fertilization was performed. That baby is now a woman in her mid 30's and there have been millions of babies conceived in this way. When the right people have the right resources and put their minds to it, they can achieve amazing results.

First, you said "I had to go look up the word "Ersatz". Then I read about a third of the way and got lost in all the lingo. Sorry." admitting that you read one third of the entirety. If that is not what you were intending to say perhaps you are a little too conservative with your word usage and should expand more to provide clarity. Second, you were not the only one that has done so since and it was directed at them as well.
As for your example, that was science at work. There were attempts to make pregnancy possible for many reasons that someone can not get pregnant over a very long time. The method that came about eventually was not now, it was just new applications of the same tools. This is not a miracle; it was someone taking the time to study the problem and coming up with a different solution than had been tried in the past; it just happened to be the correct answer. I don't see much praise for those that tried other ideas that seemed to make sense for the medical understanding of the problem at the time such as various chemical compounds ingested or inserted, or the one of placing a low amp electroshock rod in the uterus for a time.

[Octarine Valur]

I'm simply too tired to argue with people all too eager to label each other as posers and wannabes. I literally don't have the energy right now.

And just by the way, as a Sang feeder, I'm pretty certain it is energy in the living blood that feeds me. Why? Because while eating a piece of medium rare or blue steak is tasty, it sure doesn't have the same effect.

If you look at blood you get from a donor, and what you get from a butcher shop, what is the difference? What is missing from one that is in the other? Science or no science, that much is obvious. And so we fight among ourselves because of the methods we employ to satisfy a need we all display.

Some of us want to call it quits and start over as a new group because suddenly what was good enough for decades, what many of them helped shape, suddenly isn't good enough for them anymore. We can't stop people from doing that, and I certainly don't see the reason in keeping people involved in a group they don't want to be a part of anymore.

I have to say at this point that I'm so glad this divide between PSI's and Sangs has never manifested in my area, and I will do my utmost to see that it doesn't. I've been spending my time trying to build an environment where both feel welcome and safe and equal. My fledgling is a talented young PSI and I am teaching him as best I can about vampirism and the community because there are no other PSI's out and available in our area. You can bet I won't be letting any of this filter down to him.

I'm all for scientific and medical analysis of the sanguine need and feeding. There is a variety of reasons people may need to drink blood, which means that as diverse as energy feeders appear to be, there are also different kinds of blood feeders.

As trying as the disagreements around this topic appear to be, perhaps this will lead to a kind of community "awakening" or "renaissance" where Sangs will diversify in terms of reasons why they feed on blood as well?

[SangSavvy]

Greetings,

Firstly, I am going to state that I find it mighty intriguing that, although this seems like it has apparently been thought through extensively, as if prepared like a beautiful thanksgiving dinner for hours upon hours, some parts a few days in advance, in order to make your points so eloquently and heard, it also lacks basic fundamental information that most in the vampire communities, online and off, garner through their experiences that they typically go through on their journey in the OVC.  It feels as though you've decided to post this really from mere personal opinion and agenda, and spent most of your time siphoning and tailoring your argument to fit a "well thought out" treatise based on persuasion. 

Personally, one of the things I find most offensive about your post is that you saw fit to walk in here with what seems to be no prior experience with any of us here.  I'm also shocked that no one here stated their impatience with this fact so far.  Agreeance and following through with something so drastic as what you have stated, I would think, would require a lot of scrutiny on the part of those reading, so that they can make educated replies.  Most all of what I've seen here has been off-topic, or some loving a chance to hop onto what *might* be a promising bandwagon, adding their own ego to the mix. 

But what else would you expect from vampires. 

Secondly, I hope you don't think you were going to get 100% compliance in all facets from this post, or even a majority, because I'll be frank, you're talking about the personal experiences of thousands of people here.  Although, a lot of people are pretty dim, and do respond well to brainwashing these days.....so I guess you've got a good running shot at it after all.  As long as you use large words that mystify and astound, I'm sure most will be entertained enough, hu? 

Thirdly, a lot of the replies here have been centered around wondering out loud if it "can be done" or not.  Um......Of Course it can be done.  People get *very* resourceful when they want something badly enough, it does not matter what it is. 

I am not saying that needing scientific proof is an unfounded, misguided approach, or goal.  But you have supported no evidence of your OWN claims here, such as YOUR biased comments of the work gone into the surveys done by Merticus and many others, and have no examples to back it up, or perhaps some responses to the evidence that Suscitatio enterprises has shown to make it as unbiased as possible, and then perhaps compare that to the lengths that the Vatican (as you sited) went through to make sure their efforts were unbiased as well.  What work have you done so far to make your case aside from reading a thesaurus really well?  Do you even know the people your claiming to know so much about? 

Most importantly, I find it *absolutely vile* that you have decided to even *attempt* to put every single one of us on one side, or the other, at our own expense.  How dare you.  To tell any one of us who we are, or what where about, according to *your* definitions, and that we must under the guise of our "own best interest", is DISGUSTING. 

I don't know who you think you are to intimidate, judge, manipulate, or satisfy, but I'm calling bullshit on this post.  I think you have an agenda, and I think you're hiding it. 

I hope you will have to try harder than that to convince anyone to go along with you, because if you don't, then the community members that read this and "drink up the kool aid" from this are already lost causes.  I know that sounds harsh, but that is my opinion. 

Lastly, if you are a dedicated, seasoned member of the community, and are simply newly registered to the AVA forums, well then I think it's even more appalling that you would make these claims, and this stance, and try to insult the intelligence of everyone here.  In this case, I would like to know to what ends you are trying to accomplish. 

Otherwise, take your "well thought out points" somewhere else.

[Octarine Valur]

I wish there was a "Like" button on here... 'cos I really "like" SangSavvy's post

[Rav]

I agree with SangSaavy. There is an agenda here, not terribly well-hidden. It seems to me, it's just a strike at psis and hybrids because of Sappho's interview and misinformation about sangs.

[childofthespiral]

I do too. I don't need science to prove to me that what I am and what I need is real. I know from 12 years of personal experience what I am and what I need, and for the second time now, I had absolutely no contact or knowledge about any kind of vampire community anywhere, whatsoever, when I began to experience the symptoms so well documented and associated with living vampirism. I learned on my own how to get the energy I needed without a shred of training outside of trial and error. And I existed in this way for 8 full years before I finally read, on a wiccan forum, about a group of people who called themselves otherkin and believed that they were non human souls living in a human bod. I started researching otherkin, and by association on various otherkin related websites, found the vampire community. It was at that point, that for the first time, after 8 years of knowing I had something going on in me where I was falling asleep at 11:30 am after having already slept 9pm to 9am, or suffering from migraines so debillitating that I literally had to be led to the toilet in order to throw up because I couldn't see, with NO medical cause whatsoever (and believe me, when I was a teenager I had medicaid and I USED it. Wish to hell I had insurance now) even after seeing 6 different doctors and 4 specialists, all who said I tested normal.... after 8 full years of trying to deny my need and suffering, or giving in and fulfilling the need and then feeling healthy for a few days but truly thinking I was a horrible person for doing it, I FINALLY found, by accident or guidance, the online vampire community. Imagine my relief when I learned I wasn't alone, there were others out there, hundreds of others, perhaps thousands, who felt the same symptoms and experienced the same relief when they employed similar methods I had already worked out on my own.

Again, for the third and final time: Good luck trying to convince me that I am not real. Good luck trying to convince me that 12 years of my life, the first 8 years of which are hard won experience, aren't real.

[Rav]

My experience is very similiar. I didn't even know about an online comunity until a little over a year ago. I had been awakened for 17 years with no outside help. I had a blood donor when I was younger and it certainly helped the blood hunger. However, there was always something else gnawing at me that would wax and wane. Eventually, not just I, but several friends noticed that I would get all hyper while they would get tired. I learned to shield and my friends were no longer tired in my presence. I learned to get the energy I needed from other sources. And this was all before the advent of my experience with online stuff. Just because someone cannot, for whatever reason, experience something for themselves does not make it fake. For example, I have horrific pain when I ovulate. Of course, only I can feel this and know how bad it is. Even my doctor says I shoudn't be in that much pain. Does that make my pain less real because I am the only one who can feel it? No.

[LadyOfPales]

This.
This, is every word, every keystroke I ever, ever hoped to get across to the community one day.
it's everything I ever wanted to say. And I would be so willing- even more than willing to want to do this. I have been keeping an eye on myself; writing, waiting, testing things- I even threw away my own ideas and beliefs (well, at least set them aside so that they would not interfere with what I thought was going on) so that I could one day maybe show people that there maybe some basis to what is going on deep down (a real, factual cause) if people could just let go of their preconceived notions about the metaphysical and spiritual. Oh I want this to happen SO, so bad!

[Sylivia]

 I have to say cheers to SangSavvy's post. She said everything I was thinking so eloquently.  Blessed Be

[WingedWolfPsion]

The question, then, becomes whether this is important enough for the community to accept a division/secession in the name of getting real answers.

If the answers aren't forthcoming, then chances are the secession is only temporary anyhow.  I doubt there would be difficulty in getting together a group of sanguinarians who would be willing to do this, and forgo metaphysical explanations (or pretend that they have, anyhow, which is all that would actuallly be needed).

The real problem would be getting enough of them to interest a medical professional into looking into this without the group being able to provide any funding.

I support the basic idea behind this, because I support anything that furthers understanding, particularly when it's done scientifically.  (This does not mean I expect it to bear fruit--I'm actually eager to see this effort produce nil results, because it will help put to bed a physical ailment as an explanation for sang vampirism).

You do not have to support the idea of sanguinarian vampirism being purely physical to support this proposal.  Carrying this out would be beneficial to the community regardless.

[paindancer]

If that really were their intention, psion, it was lost in the hyperbole.

Yes, I agree sangs are easier to potentially test.. but now we are getting to lab monkies.

I dunno.. prove that vampirism does anything....

Get stronger after feeding?  Prove it.
Stay younger?  Prove it.
Get faster?  Prove it.

Get some data showing that something actually happens outside of a feel good effect.. and you got something to go on.  Otherwise, there is no difference in the potential fantasy factor for sangs or psi.

[CJ!]

Well whether you agree with content or not I would like to thank those who took the effort to read the entire treatise as it is and took the time to respond. The high praise and vitriol received so far is understandable as it is an impassioned piece. I feel I have a lot of points to cover so I will do the best I can to answer all the relevant pieces. The format will be subjects addressed to be followed with those who had addressed such concerns. Oddly enough many of the queries toward me can be answered by reading the treatise again. I will pull up relevant quotes when necessary.

Tone & Style of Treatise (childofthespiral, Kaiya Shadow)
I have a very deliberate style of writing: I do whatever I can to make sure my argument is airtight and each word I use I use with a purpose to mean exactly what I mean to the point that it cannot be hijacked to mean any other thing.  My word choices are very deliberate in mind of what I want to illustrate as well as connotations outside of the dictionary definition of the word. For example one sanguinarian seemed to get very upset under the assumption that I was supposedly speaking for all sanguinarians. The title of this piece is called "A Sanguinarian Treatise." I used the indefinite article because I know full well that I do not speak for all sanguinarians, just myself. Subtle differences can go a long way and sometimes I may rely on a rather lofty word as I feel it is the best word to use to convey my sentiment. If I settled for anything less I fear it would compromise my argument. I would hope that those who take their sanguinarianism (or just the topic of general vampirism in general) seriously would take the time to consult their dictionary when they encounter an unfamiliar word and appreciate (but not necessarily agree) the argument in its pure form.

The Goal (Paindancer and others)
No hidden agenda here. In fact my goal is explicitly stated in the very first paragraph of the treatise:

However, they are selfish intentions that I believe many sanguinarians share: the hope that in the future fresh and clean blood would be easily accessible or that we will no longer feel the need to consume blood for our own well-being.

The train of thought is that with knowledge gained about ourselves via clinical trials (physical, psychological or some blend of both possibly) sanguinarians would have a better range of options to manage or possibly eradicate their sanguinarianism. In addition non-sanguinarians would no longer be able to rely on misconceptions as an excuse to dismiss us.

Why Cure Sanguinarianism? (RKCoon)
A sanguinarian isn’t what I am. A sanguinarian isn’t who I am. It is just something extra I have to deal with: consume blood or pay the consequences. Although we may behave like an identity group I feel it is way too soon and rather pretentious to say that we are one. There are no hard facts about sanguinarianism yet. All we have is testimony and anecdotal evidence. There is nothing that confirms that sanguinarianism is necessarily a permanent condition although if we never get access to clinical trials that may end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sanguinarianism isn’t like homosexuality. The only detriment to being gay was the biases and prejudices of other people. Sanguinarianism have problems outside of social sentiment: if we don’t feed, we get sick. Wouldn’t it be nice to be rid of this extraneous need and the stigma that goes along with it? On the flipside, and speaking in a hypothetical situation given that clinical trials were done, should the medical and/or psychological community offer a treatment that seems worse than just managing my sanguinarianism, this could more solidify sanguinarianism as an identity.

Obtaining donors and # of sanguinarians onboard (Cheri)
Cheri stated some of her first hand experience with fellow donors on how “vampire politics” drives away donors from wanting to donate. However I would counter that with greater knowledge on a solid and mundane footing people who may have not necessarily have ever heard of or participated in the current “vampire” community may be more apt to feel sympathy for our plight and perhaps donate. Perhaps butchers may find a niche market to cater to sanguinarians. There will be incentive on behalf of pharmaceutical companies to create medicines. Perhaps we will never feel the need to consume blood for our physical and mental health again. I just see a potential for more opportunities to satiate our needs if we put ourselves in position to get better knowledge of ourselves.
   As for the number of sanguinarians needed for a study there was an instance of twin girls who were the only people ever in history to have this rare disease. Only two people were needed in order to pinpoint and study that illness. (link: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/955349/fields_condition_the_rarest_disease.html?cat=5)
 However in terms of social perception they do not have the baggage of the sanguinarian. Quoting the treatise again:

The vast majority of the community, whether through intracommunity internet message boards or appearances in the mainstream media, professes an inalterable belief of themselves as vampires, often accompanied by belief and practice in metaphysical concepts such as psi, chi, prana, auras, and the like which in itself has no basis in natural reality; a blind faith in matters that have to be believed to be seen. In essence this is a religious conviction and by extension optional.

Why on earth would the scientific community want to come to the aid of a community whose suffering is seen as optional?

I guess what you're trying to say is, in order to scientifically and/or clinically define vampires and vampirism, there needs to be clear separation between the different types and clear definitions of each?

What I am trying to say is that sanguinarians cannot actively define themselves underneath the vampire umbrella if they desire enough credibility to gain access to clinical trials. Despite my strong use of language to illustrate the state of self-inflicted disrepair the vampire community my aim was never to assert any superiority of sanguinarians over metaphysical practitioners of vampirism but rather to show that sanguinarians have a distinct advantage in terms of access to scientific studies to learn about ourselves: the tangibility of blood. In contrast the psi vampire has to actively believe in the existence of this energy first (or retroactively believe that you were feeding on it before awakening) in order to feed. If we keep the connection that we are all “vampires” it would appear to the potential scientific researcher that sanguinarians necessarily believe in metaphysical energies. Once again why on earth would the scientific community want to come to the aid of a community whose suffering is seen as optional?

Assigning incredulity, mechanisms, and “Eastern science” (Paindancer)
For the purposes of scientific study the claims of the psi vampire are incredulous. A scientific mind isn’t going to buy a necessary premise on faith alone. It is also quite interesting that you brought up mechanisms as a strength for psi theory. I actually see it as a weakness. Since psi/chi/prana/etc is intangible theories and mechanisms are as far as psi can go. Since blood is tangible sanguinarians do not need pet theories. The facts are out there. It is just up to us to put ourselves in the best position to obtain them. In the meanwhile the best answer for us is “I don’t know.”
   Science is science regardless of geography. Perhaps you meant Eastern philosophy. I analogize the inventions of vital energies as akin to Judeo-Christian creation theories. As we have progressed with our knowledge in medicine and the natural world, such antiquated ideas are really of no use anymore as universal fact. However if it is in part of a personal spiritual persuasion which enriches one life perhaps such ideas could be useful.

In closing, yeah, the tone of the piece is quite harsh and I wrote it with the skeptical outsider in mind despite the content being very much an intracommunity matter. However I feel it is a lens that we should look through now and then. This is the prism the outside world looks at us and we can’t live our entire lives underground. Despite our best efforts at discretion people will find out and we have to be prepared.