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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Vampires & Vampirism  |  Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  A Sanguinarian Treatise: An Argument For Partition From The Vampire Community 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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SangSavvy
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Posts: 95


Love is Always Fate's decision.


« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2011, 05:05:45 PM »

Thanks to the support on my previous reply, I appreciate it.  

@jayceemoon, ya didn't read the op thoroughly enough hun.  CJ is claiming that her past experience with psi feeding has helped her to "see the light", as it were, that it's actually just a bunch of bollocks.

@Jurence, care to elaborate, and care to add what third-party you're referencing?

@Jason, good to see you around, I'm glad you've joined the conversation.  

Ladyofpales, I like your new avatar caption...very cute, I had to chuckle a bit.  But it does stand to reason that we *still* don't know who CJ! is, as "she" seems to have avoided almost all of my questions and points.  My reply must have not been important enough to bother with, hu?  ;-)  

Although I do not agree with most of your reply, CJ, I must say, I can at the very least appreciate more of where you're coming from now, even though I still think it's absolutely absurd.  

Basically, because you having no donor at the moment after having one constantly as your main problem, now you feel you have the right to make your problem *Everyone's* problem, again I state, at the expense of us ourselves.  You have decided to suggest that others put themselves up as lab monkeys (I agree with paindancer on that) because you want to ensure that you solve your problem in such a way where it never has to happen again.  Well, I'm sorry but, your mighty "highness" isn't going to get her way all the time.  Good on you that you've never had to go without blood till now, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to throw some unseen weight around because your mad about that, and try to sacrifice half of the communities safety, and almost all of it's values, for yourself.  You're "airtight" language does nothing but make it that much more sick and twisted to read.  It turns my stomach to think of the forethought you've put into this, when it's really hardly any forethought at all, and only forethought for yourself.  

I see a lot of people here stating replies that include a perception that CJ! is trying to discredit psi vampires at the same time as segregating sanguines for medical research in order to have a better chance at obtaining blood.  I have to say, I really agree with this.  The things she has said seem to say at point blank that she sees no credit to psi feeding, and is really trying hard to "politely" disqualify any reason for psi's to have any credit, while giving more credit to sanguinarians.  

The fact of the matter is that, across the board, humans are not absolute.  The very essence of a human being is extremely subjective, and not at all concrete.  Human beings are not black and white, which is why you also see statements being made that psychology isn't an exact science.  One of the issues that I really take with purely science-biased efforts is that "belief" in and of itself is looked at as a reason why it is fallible, insecure, and has no basis.  I don't know about anyone else, but I think that slights why we are human beings in the first place.  We are unique because we have the ability to think of things in the mind, and feel things from a place that has nothing to do with the mind, or science.  Currently, we have no way to measure both the mind, and the heart (the heart I refer to being something more than that thing that I *hope* is physically pumping away inside of you, CJ).  

I just want a "solution" that seeks to 'tide us over' until something better comes along.  You're proposition not only puts the lives of those that elect and subject themselves to clinical trials at risk in ways big and small, but it also puts the entire vision of what we stand for as vampiric humans at risk, and potently so, for those that do not participate, and/or are not in agreeance with it.  I know that's been one of the concerns many people have had an issue with in the past when vampires, poser and not, have put themselves in the mainstream eye.  Yes, it does stand to reason that even through the best efforts of any organization, a part of the success or failure falls on people to know across the board that everyone is different, and quick judgement is wrong.  However, I think this proposition falls into a realm of "avoidable problems", which is in part why I take so much issue with it.  

You said:
"...blind faith in matters that have to be believed to be seen.  In essence this is a religious conviction and by extension optional."  "Why on earth would the scientific community want to come to the aid of a community whose suffering is seen as optional?"

You know, it's interesting you stated this when you also tried to cite the Vatican as reason why your proposition is that much more valid.  I'll give you an example.  Lets take a journey through the last 50 years of the Catholic church.  The scientific community has done a great deal to try to prove that Catholics have an option to suffer or not, in relation to their beliefs in Jesus Christ, and all affiliates, in ways which have been extremely controversial in nature.  

My belief is not optional just because it's belief.  Belief is the term that what I feel has been given, as a result of their not being any way to rightly measure that which cannot be seen.  And just because you don't believe it, or it cannot currently be proved, doesn't mean I've lost the argument.  

I'm *NOT* saying that to indulge in only one or the other (science, or belief in energy) is the solution.  A combination of both needs to be addressed and satisfied, because that is what humans are - a combination of both science, and energy.  

*IF* this was ever something that a vampire would entertain participating in, the *HOW* is very important, something which you seem to be giving no thought to.  How can I say that when you've put so much energy to making your language so "airtight" you might ask?  Because you're missing entire pieces to the argument, of a community that you seem to know nothing about, and think you know enough.  
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Belfazaar
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Gender: Male
Posts: 63


A stroll through the graveyards can be quite relax


« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2011, 05:30:09 PM »

*shrugs*  I said pretty much what I was thinking on the VCN facebook launch of this...  I can cut and paste it here, doesn't matter...

I think the thing that matters is that.. Is there a need for sanguines to have their own space for discussions that would not be disturbed by other forms of vampirism?  Yes.  But the moment it becomes anti-psy, I would draw a line and leave.  Sorry... I don't think anyone has a corner market on Vampirism and all avenues thereof...
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Vitae Dominae,

Belfazaar Ashantison
Founder and Elder, House of Mystic Echoes
Founder of NOVA (New Orleans Vampire Association)

"Wizard's Fourth Rule (from Temple of the Winds): "There is magic in forgiveness, the magic to heal. In forgiveness you grant, but more so, in forgiveness you receive." (Terry Goodkind from the Sword of Truth Series)
Belfazaar
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Gender: Male
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A stroll through the graveyards can be quite relax


« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2011, 05:56:35 PM »

Do I think we need true medical/clinical study? Yes. 

Is psychic vampirism bullshit? No.  I have my reasons for believing this and what convinced me may not convince the next 150 people down the line...

Is there a need to segregate from the rest of the community?  To an extent.  Sanguines need a SAFE place to discuss issues.  All too often we are being forced to deal with psychic vampirism and all of its offshoots, yet when we discuss having an area of our own, we are wrong.  When we strike back at psy vampires who stated things such as "sangs are psys on training wheels", "psys are more enlightened" or "blood is a metaphor", we are wrong. 

We, sanguines, are already being forced out of the community.  Look how many threads on ALL of the boards come up where all but battle lines are drawn between the sanguine and psychic portions of the community.  I've heard, personally, from more than one member of the European community that sanguine ARE being disallowed from attending events.  At first I thought it was just Sebastiaan's ramblings, but got reports from others, including a French member of the House of Mystic Echoes...  People are literally shoving sanguines OUT of the community.  Donna (WWP) and others try to say it is a non-issue or "making a mountain out of a mole hill" but guess what... If it is happening across ALL boards, it is more than just a mole hill...  It is a serious issue and needs to be dealt with as a whole community...

You want to stop us from having our own space.  Give us a damned good reason why.  Do I think CJ is right?  Yes and No.  Yes because we do need a place where we feel safe to discuss OUR issues without the advent of perpetual crap.  No because, even though I think this is a physiological condition, it will only be "solved" (as in the mystery will be shed light upon and answers finally attained) if we ALL work together.

Medical/clinical studies are needed.  Currently, all we have available to us is information passed by each other where "HOME studies" have been done, even by those, such as myself, with medical knowledge (11 1/2 years of nursing). 

This is what I wrote on the FB group VCN...
*********************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************


OK... I've read through the post, and remember VVC members, there was the suggestion of something similar after all of the Sappho Wolf crap.

I also mentioned in RK's rant that when sangs suggest a place of our own we are wrong. When we bitc...h about the treatment we are receiving FROM OUR OWN COMMUNITY, we are wrong. We are EXPECTED to merely sit here and be phased out of the community without so much as a "how do you do?"

Think we're not being phased from the community... Bullshit. Psychic vampirism and ALL of its offshoots has been forced down our throats for more than 25 years and it all started with ONE phrase... "Sangs are psys on training wheels"... People like Sebastiaan have latched on to this and escalated it to new heights within his own works with such phrases as "the blood was just a metaphor"... Which was mimicked in "Vampires in their own words" under the guise that "psychic vampires are more enlightened than sanguine..."

AND PEOPLE ARE PERPETUALLY BUYING INTO THIS CRAP.

Vampirism is NOT a validated condition, despite the fact that we have labeled it as such in our own beliefs/minds. There have been no true medical/clinical studies which set us apart. There is only "hearsay" and limited medically oriented HOME studies. Some of us who have worked in the medical field have experimented.

I've even done studies where I used animal blood and human blood in degrees of fresh, frozen and days old... Got news for ya... Days later, all it did was curb my hunger... It didn't sate it in any way, shape or form. Frozen tasted like shit. Animal blood... I simply don't feel right about because the animal cannot grant permission. This is not to say that an animal hunted for its meat can't be used... I just don't relish taking the life of anything myself (I get lost in the eyes and then the pain... I am empathic... I just don't feed that way).

The conclusion I came to... Blood too long outside its host body does NOT have what I require. Hence, my belief and steadfast clinging to "there is something IN the blood"... Do I say that the others who spout that it is JUST THE BLOOD are fake. NO. Do I think they are misguided... Yes and No... Yes because of my own personal beliefs. No because I am not the end all in vampiric knowledge and there might even be an offshoot or two of sanguine vampires...

Whatever... I'm rambling. The point is that sanguine vampires NEED a place where we can SAFELY discuss our particular branch of vampirism WITHOUT shitheaded psys trashing us for our particular strain of vampirism. I would welcome such people as Sylvere, Michelle and other psy vampires that I personally like and/or trust, because they are eager to learn about our vampirism so that they know where to send people who ARE like us... But there are those in the community who are only out to start shit because they thrive on the drama... They live for it. Because their minuscule little world isn't filled with all that THEY dream...

The moment it became an anti-psy site, however, would be where I would personally draw a line and leave...
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Vitae Dominae,

Belfazaar Ashantison
Founder and Elder, House of Mystic Echoes
Founder of NOVA (New Orleans Vampire Association)

"Wizard's Fourth Rule (from Temple of the Winds): "There is magic in forgiveness, the magic to heal. In forgiveness you grant, but more so, in forgiveness you receive." (Terry Goodkind from the Sword of Truth Series)
sphynxcatvp
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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2011, 07:06:09 PM »

Quote from: Belfazaar
We, sanguines, are already being forced out of the community...You want to stop us from having our own space.  Give us a damned good reason why. 

Q.
F.
T.

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masticina
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Posts: 89


Rwar I am a tiger


« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2011, 08:16:53 PM »

Looks like you have rubbed some people the wrong way and personally I wouldn't want the community to break up. Yes there are posers and troublemakers what community DOESN"T has them.

Zeta here has some good points Smiley You can as you desire contact her at Zeta@lesvampires.org if you want to deal with her questions. Now she has made a LOOOOONG reply post Sad Sorry all there is no easy to way to do this! She for some reason can't make an account here to react so I posted it for her.

Really if anybody desires to talk to her about it talk to her. Don't shoot the messenger with a sawed off shotgun! And again sorry for the long post but the original post was rather big to!

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Zeta <zeta.omega@gmail.com> wrote:

> > http://www.atlantavampirealliance.com/forum/index.php?topic=2234.0
> >
> > "A Sanguinarian Treatise: An Argument For Partition From The Vampire
> > Community<http://www.atlantavampirealliance.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=566e7b26f36a7408d5b32b2f44409c4e&topic=2234.msg17550#msg17550>
> > "
> > by CJ
> >
> > My intentions for writing this treatise are admittedly selfish. However,
> > they are selfish intentions that I believe many sanguinarians share: the
> > hope that in the future fresh and clean blood would be easily accessible or
> > that we will no longer feel the need to consume blood for our own
> > well-being. I intend this treatise to be the catalyst and blueprint to
> > achieve those ends.
> >
You've already stated selfishness as a main driving reason you've chosen to
write this treatise; it would be redundant to point out that your own
perspective cannot possibly be thought to comprise the whole of the
assembled sanguinarians. Still, being of a paranoid bent, I do believe
that's the underlying read-in you intended. More on that to come.


> >    The importance of the “vampire” (I put the word vampire in quotes since
> > all of us, whether by design or by coincidence, are ersatz versions of the
> > archetype as seen in popular media) community was lost on me when I had a
> > donor. Other than the intermittent consumption of blood from my donor, being
> > a sanguinarian had no bearing on my everyday life. The only interest I had
> > in the “vampire” community was more based out of curiosity rather than
> > personal stake, wondering what the current zeitgeist was. I felt as if as
> > long as I treated this part of my life with discretion; that I need not
> > worry about what others within the community were doing. However, now that I
> > do not have a donor, while I endeavor to stay well despite this fact, I have
> > realized how my fate is tied in with the rest of the community.

This isn't entirely true, actually. One can easily point out that since you
had a donor previously, without any connection to the community, you can
find one again. You're not held by the community whatsoever now that you do
not have a donor. You got one without the influence of the community and you
can get another without the community's influence. You are choosing to
associate your "fate" with the rest of the community.


> > Thus when I feel that a major facet of the community is pathological to my
> > well-being, I have a duty to speak about it.
> >
Again, personal opinion without direct evidence supporting. Possibly an
improper use of the word "pathological" however.


> >    By far the one way that the “vampire” community affects my life is in
> > the public perception of the community affixed to all who belong. Public
> > perception is the most important factor in determining whether or not I can
> > get a donor or whether or not if I were outed I would lose some sort of
> > standing in my life.

No, not really. Reputation of a group can easily be overruled by personal
conduct. The most important thing determining if you can get a donor, and if
being outed would lose you standing, is you.


> > The current status of public perception of our community is, to put it
> > mildly, quite embarrassing. The vast majority of the community, whether
> > through intracommunity internet message boards or appearances in the
> > mainstream media, professes an inalterable belief of themselves as vampires,
> > often accompanied by belief and practice in metaphysical concepts such as
> > psi, chi, prana, auras, and the like which in itself has no basis in natural
> > reality; a blind faith in matters that have to be believed to be seen. In
> > essence this is a religious conviction and by extension optional.

Ah, there we go! I was wondering when personal biases would begin to show up
in earnest. While I can go on for ages with evidence that mainstream science
is *ignoring* the evidence of psychic phenomena (even to the point of
denying nobel prize winners positions in scientific conventions once thier
beliefs in paranormal phenomena are exposed) that would be counter
productive. Simply put, there's ample evidence for the existence of such
metaphysical concepts as you've broadly dismissed. Tribal peoples have long
told of creatures which scientists dismissed... until they saw them
themselves decades later. And the Chinese have believed in "Chi" for the
better part of six thousand years. Just because "Western Science" refuses to
acknowledge something  others acknowledge does not mean that Scientists are
right and the people experiencing are wrong, as you've just implied.


> > In my opinion, the most telling outsider assessment of our community is the
> > all too accurate portrayal in the South Park episode “The Ungroundable,”
> > especially the part where the vampire clique was sitting on the gym
> > bleachers arbitrarily deciding what names they should adopt and what kind of
> > vampires they should be. We were most likely laughing in spite of ourselves
> > or busy deflecting the characterization upon the “poseur.”
> >
Yes, I have to agree with you there. There are a lot of people pretending in
the VC, and there are a lot of people who are confused about their own
identities, trying to find meaning in a suit that does not fit them. This,
again, is not a reason to class the entirety of a group as "posuers" or the
like. I laughed genuinely at the South Park episode, actually. You know your
group is being recognized when South Park has made fun of you. *shrugs*


> >    Sanguinarians need not the burden of these outrageous metaphysical
> > claims and baseless new age beliefs as professed by the vast majority of the
> > community.

Opinion. And again, an opinion that, while toeing the scientific party line,
completely ignores personal experience, the work of the AVA and the fact
that psychic phenomena *is* a valid study that scientists *consciously
choose* to ignore.


> > Our claim, namely that the consumption blood is the most potent vessel in
> > treatment of a host of symptoms is a falsifiable claim as blood is a
> > tangible part of material reality. Unlike the metaphysical adherents who
> > consciously and often sincerely placate us with substitutes for knowledge,
> > we can find, no matter how hurtful it may be to our pride, true knowledge
> > about the nature of our condition, whether the genesis is physiological,
> > psychological, or both.

I'm going to sidestep the philosophical debate that tries to define "truth"
here in favor of pointing out, again, that this is your bias talking and not
a reflection of "reality".


> > Such knowledge can decrease the stigma associated with being a
> > sanguinarian, dispel the misconceptions the public may have upon us and that
> > we have upon ourselves, and also be quite instrumental in reaching the
> > aforementioned goal of having fresh, clean blood more accessible or finding
> > a way not to feel as consuming blood is a necessity.
> >
So you think. Unfortunately no one finds people with Renfield's syndrome any
less disturbing now that there's a medical name for it. No one finds the
sudden death of an infant any less traumatic now that we label it SIDS.
You're talking about an emotional reaction to the consumption of blood;
people won't be effected by it any differently knowing there's a "syndrome"
than they are now. The only thing that'll really change is your personal
feelings of validation. Which is, really, what this whole post is about;
your need to feel validated by modern medicine.


> >    However, such knowledge cannot be found within the community, but must
> > come from outside the community. In order to garner respect from the
> > scientific community as a group worth doing clinical tests upon; we must
> > prove ourselves to be credible and of sound mind. The status quo makes us
> > very easy to dismiss.

Again, status quo is to ignore or outright dismiss evidence to the contrary.
They wouldn't TAKE someone like Michelle Belanger for study even if she
volunteered. Hell, the aforementioned woman regularly submits to tests of
her abilities for various documentaries and consistently generates abnormal
results. You've seen the Kirlian photography they did with her, right?
Kirlian Photography doesn't photograph the "aura" at all, but there's still
a consistent change that follows in line with exactly what Michelle
describes happening. I'm positive that there are people out there who
scientists could test on claims of "energy" vampirism. There's enough of a
bias against anything perceived as metaphysical that it just wouldn't
happen. As noted, bias does not conform to "truth"


> > A process of reforming the entire community to a more materialist and
> > scientific paradigm would be impossible as the beliefs of “vampires” of a
> > more metaphysical persuasion as their perspectives are inherently
> > unscientific.

Value judgement, see above for why it's untrue.


> > The path of least resistance would be simply for sanguinarians to leave the
> > “vampire” community and start their own community with no affiliation of the
> > old community whatsoever. It is imperative that if a sanguinarian truly
> > wants to be delivered from the bondage of societal stigma and the perceived
> > need to consume blood that any metaphysical preconception has to be let go
> > and disavowed.

Translation for anyone who wasn't following what was actually being said
here: "It is imperative for my feelings of validation that we be accepted by
modern medicine. Only then will the people who think I'm creepy or wierd
finally understand that it's not me, it's my disorder, I have to be
different from them!"


> > Thus partition from the “vampire” community is of the utmost importance to
> > the sanguinarian.
> >
> > *Partition*
> >    Before I discuss what courses of action may be necessary for partition
> > to happen and the benefits of partition, I have to narrowly define what it
> > is and what it is not. What partition pertains to is sanguinarians as an
> > interest group separating ourselves from the rest of the “vampire” community
> > in an effort to disassociate from the claims and the beliefs of the
> > “vampire” community and assert our own protocols, In short, to establish
> > ourselves as something else entirely. This is not an attempt to assert any
> > sort of sanguinarian dominance

You just spent most of the above paragraphs stating there was no grounds for
the validity of any of the claims made by those who believe themselves to be
metaphysical vampires, but you're not saying that Sanguinarians, the only
ones with any "real, verifiable" basis are better? Am I the only one
catching this, or was this another intentional "under the radar" precision
strike?

Let's lay it out on the table now. I wasn't around for the first Sang/Psi
debate, but even an imbicile can feel the underlying tensions with enough
accuracy to realize that the old debate is simply waiting to rage anew. This
is largely for the reasons you've just listed, and it comes down to
accepting or denying the validity of metaphysics.  There cannot be a
"verfiable" answer in a culture that regularly chooses to ignore the
evidence of experiences which exist outside of it's own (disgustingly
narrow) view of reality. Yet the debate is waiting because we are raised in
a culture that chooses to deny the spiritual and place the material on a
golden cloud. If you wish to be tested against modern medicine you feel
free. Do not attempt to break apart a support network because of your own
beliefs. Even skepticism and science are themselves matters of blind faith.


> > or to insist that sanguinarians and metaphysical practitioners of vampirism
> > must never associate on a personal level. In this instance, partition only
> > pertains to the communities as interest groups: people allied together with
> > a common aim for specific social change. I feel I have outlined the case on
> > why the current aims of the “vampire” community are detrimental to the
> > preferred aims of the sanguinarian community.

The current aims of the vampire community are to find, create and promote
acceptance in society, promote healthy and safe donor-vamp relationships and
treat/cure the vampiric hunger. There is no dissonance between the goals
you've stated and the aims of the modern community save that the modern
community chooses to pursue this path with the inclusion of a group who's
validity you do not support.

And, as I mentioned earlier, there is no "sanguinarian community" you are
speaking for. You are speaking for yourself only. While you may be trying to
rally people to your cause, you are not an appointed spokesman for all
sanguinarians. See the above about my paranoia.

I would like to present an example of being freed from the shackles of the
> > metaphysical bent can allow us to do.

Wow, you've got it bad here. Pray tell, step out of your own box for a
second and tell me what will happen if you don't find the "real" causes.
Suppose all this "metaphysical" stuff is what the "reality" is? No, on
second thought, don't. I really don't want to read more diatribe on anything
you don't consider "real."


> >    In the 1980s, AIDS activists where often shut out of the conversation
> > among scientists in terms of how to study and treat the illness. The
> > activists’ motivations were mainly from emotion and desperation for
> > increased access to treatment. However, they did not have the scientific
> > knowledge and where withal to effectively steer the discourse. However, AIDS
> > activists read studies from the current field of knowledge and framed their
> > arguments from within that paradigm. This approach helped shaped National
> > Institute of Health studies closer to the ideals of the AIDS activists. For
> > more information on this subject refer to the book “Impure Science: AIDS,
> > Activism, and the Politics of Knowledge” by University of California at San
> > Diego professor Steven Epstein.
> >
AIDS was starting from a relatively different position. Vampires, psychic or
sanguine, have nothing more than a list of symptoms to describe without the
addition of the hated metaphysical flavoring. AIDS patients have this thing
inside their blood that's pretty easy to find: HIV. You're comparing unlike
things and telling the community that they can become alike if only we drop
a paradigm that actually works for a large majority. It doesn't work that
way, and you know it.


> >    With the current baggage of vampirism as an inalterable identity and
> > continuation of professing untestable and unconfirmable metaphysical
> > beliefs, we are already shut out of the scientific discussion.

Hmm. Well, lets see. The symptoms are certainly testable. Sunlight
sensitivity, lethargy, stomach pains, craving for human blood, etc. And as
noted above, given that there are several rather vocal vampires who
regularly allow themselves to be tested according to thier own paradigms, I
hardly see how the beliefs matter.


> > However, if we drop these pretenses and associates, we can inquire about
> > the current body of knowledge there may be on the subject (what happens when
> > humans consume blood, if there actually is a study proving that a placebo is
> > just as effective as blood in treating sanguinarianism), or make a case to
> > build a body of knowledge in correlation with scientific authorities.
> >
There is a case to make a body of knowledge in correlation with scientific
authority, namely that so many people report the same symptoms, and the same
working treatment for the symptoms. Nice of you to ignore the body of
knowledge the AVA has been working on, though. As for the placebo study?
That'd work either way, and would actually be a point in favor of your
"metaphysics is a lie" position if it does work.


> >    I can understand why many would be hesitant to leave what has been
> > already built. Sanguinarians for the most part are the ones who have built
> > the foundation of the “vampire” community and by the fact that we feel the
> > need to consume blood have more ownership of the term “vampire.” However, in
> > the context of the community, the term “vampire” has mutated to the point
> > where it no longer describes us. The great foundation currently supports up
> > a crumbling dilapidated building caulked with metaphysical nonsense. It is
> > time to move to a steadier edifice.
> >
You're welcome to do whatever you want, and I don't particularly care who
follows either. Perhaps you didn't realize when you stopped sounding like
someone interested in finding scientific backing to someone interested in
gathering up a cult and moving to Birmingham, but it started right about
here.  I'm aware of who built the community. It's such a power play to feel
the need to address the roots of the community and ownership of the word
"vampire" that I almost had to laugh. You're trying to rekindle some of the
old anxiety sanguines felt when psychic vampires started pushing for
acceptance. Wonder if it's working...



> > *Science*
> >    Science is not a belief system.

Carried to the extent you and many others take it, yes it is. You have your
set beliefs and if anything challenges them then it's "unscientific,"
"doesn't exist" or "nonsense." When scientists will dutifully ignore
evidence that does not correlate with preconceived notions about the nature
of something they are no longer practicing objective science but indulging
in blind dogmatic faith. Yes, Science is as much a Religion or a Belief to
you as anything spiritual or philosophical is to anyone else.


> > It is a method of determining what is and what is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
*Science* (from the Latin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin> *scientia*,
meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes
knowledge<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge>
 in the form of testable
explanations<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory>
 and predictions <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions> about the
world<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_(philosophy)>
.[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#cite_note-0>[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#cite_note-Popper-1>
[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#cite_note-2>[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#cite_note-3>
 An older meaning still in use today is that of
Aristotle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>,
for whom scientific knowledge was a body of reliable knowledge that can be
logically and rationally <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason> explained (*
see "History and etymology"
section<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#History_and_etymology>
 below*).[5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#cite_note-4>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Science is not a measure of what "is" and "is not," it is a system of making
predictions and organizing results, as well as comparing outcomes. What "is"
and "is not" is more correctly derived from philosophy than from science. To
believe that science has all the answers, or can even *provide* all the
answers, is a matter of pure, blind faith in a system. Welcome to Religion
101, please get a name tag and sit down next to Patty in the desk on the
left. Your course books can be picked up tomorrow.

Since the enlightenment it has been by far the superior method in obtaining
> > knowledge. The fact that there is an internet for us to have banded together
> > and create a wide-ranging community is a testament to the end results of
> > scientific inquiry among countless of other medical, technological, and
> > historical discoveries. With this track record, scientific inquiry upon our
> > sanguinarianism would give us the most accurate insight on what may really
> > be the source of our shared experiences.
> >
Again, opinion. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. If you want to try it,
you go right ahead.


> >    I do want to touch upon some anticipated objections. First of all, some
> > detractors may say that since the answers and explanations in science are
> > subject to change, they are somehow less valid. There are two problems with
> > this objection. First, it presents a false dichotomy when the objection is
> > applied, usually by someone who has a pre-existing belief that they feel
> > must be justified: there is a flaw in this system, so mine must be correct.

Oh dear gods, have you looked in a mirror since third grade?


> > Even if the scientific explanation is incorrect, it could be the case that
> > a third alternative may be correct. Second, what some people may perceive as
> > a weakness is actually a strength. Given better evidence, a scientist would
> > rework the answer to fit the evidence rather than maintain the obsolete
> > answer. Often in this community, data is cherry picked in order to support
> > pre-conceived notions, which is really a backwards way of making
> > conclusions.
> >
Someone please, dear god, get this person a mirror. I'll even do it myself
if you tell me to ship it.

Everything you've just stated you are, yourself, doing. And furthermore,
scientists do it all the time. For decades, in some cases.


> > Many metaphysical practitioners of vampirism profess a belief that
> > psi/chi/prana/energy is something that science will eventually catch up to.
> > I often hear the analogy of alchemy becoming chemistry cited in support of
> > this viewpoint. However, the problem with this analogy is that alchemy did
> > not become chemistry, chemistry completely supplanted alchemy. It is also
> > very likely that chemistry would have emerged without the existence of
> > alchemy. Robert Boyle, one of the fathers of the field of chemistry, was
> > once labeled as an alchemist; he sincerely tried to transmute metals, but
> > found more interest in the physical properties of chemistry. Alchemy failed,
> > and the field of chemistry resulted. However in this instance, the sentiment
> > is that science will confirm it rather than refute it, as opposed to what
> > actually happened in their alchemy to chemistry analogy. A related argument
> > is the principle that “lack of evidence does not mean evidence of lack.”
> > This may be true; however it does not give one license to make up anything
> > without a basis in material reality.

Somehow several thousand years of experience, without hundreds of pages of
text, with various cultures around the world, are being easily written off
as "without a basis in reality." I'm not really sure how you're managing to
do that. You're completely ignoring all personal experience, either
individual or group, and assigning it as worthless for the purposes of
evidence. Not to mention various people around the world who can and
regularly do accomplish amazing things based on their thousands of years of
experience, by doing exactly what they're instructed to do, following this
"metaphysical nonesense" training they receive.

And I've already mentioned the blatant bias of Western Science.  Do I need
to draw pictures or find examples? Let me know, I'm sure I can find half a
dozen with very little effot.


> > Sanguinarians do not have that burden, blood is tangible, and thus a
> > perceived need to consume blood can be tested under scientific conditions.
> >
Which still doesn't require sanguinarians to split from any paradigm they
choose to hold, does not require them to leave the community and really has
nothing to do with the metaphysical argument. Science can test the effect of
blood consumption on vampires all they like without ever having to touch the
validity of metaphysics.


> >    I would now like to introduce not an objection, but a fear many
> > sanguinarians may have who would be hesitant to submit themselves to
> > clinical trials: the fear that we are really “crazy.” I would argue that in
> > the event that sanguinarianism is found to be some sort of delusion, that
> > being cognizant that your mind is giving you false information about your
> > physical needs (the human mind is imperfect in interpreting internal and
> > external stimuli) and admitting as such would give one far more credibility
> > than one who insists without any physical evidence some sort of paranormal
> > or metaphysical reasoning behind the need. I myself have framed this as a
> > speculation of a reason behind my own needs to some hardened skeptics. They
> > have found me unusual, but not insane or unreasonable.
> >
Ahhh, back to the "I need validation, I need acceptance" chant now. Hey,
whatever works honey. I'm certainly not saying that it's impossible that
sanguine vamprirism is physical or psychological in nature. I am however
making the point that you're invalidating a huge number of people with no
reason other than superiority issues, a love of western science, a
disturbing need to be accepted by  "normal" society and, as usual for one of
a "scientific" bent a blatant disregard for anything that doesn't support
your own position that metaphysical reality is utter rubbish.


> >    Such testimony may be useful in tracking societal sentiment about a
> > matter, but is not nearly sufficient into claims of what is and what is not
> > physical reality. Testimony is helpful in constructing history, but in
> > science it is merely anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is not an end,
> > but merely a beginning to setting up an experiment based on observable
> > phenomena. Metaphysical claims cannot make this step, but the claims of the
> > sanguinarian can.
> >
Yes, metaphysical claims can make that step. Scientists usually just ignore
the ones that do and publish the ones that fail. Oh, and the "the claims of
the sanguinarian" line you keep chanting? You're speaking for the group
again. You realize you're just a peon with an opinion, not the spokesperson
for the entire sanguine group, right?


> >
> > *Engaging Those Outside of the Community*
> >    It is impractical for sanguinarianism to remain underground (and as
> > compared to the more accessible community of “energy vampirism,”
> > sanguinarianism is still very much underground).

Don't know what circles you're running in, but it's not all that underground
to me.


> > We are too far small a minority to create our own in person society, and
> > such an experience would be far too limiting in comparison to all the
> > excitement the entire world possesses. In addition, the vast majority of our
> > donors come from outside the community, and it is our knowledge (although
> > anecdotal) that the blood of other sanguinarians is ineffective in treating
> > what ails us. We as an interest group have to duty to testify about our
> > experiences as sanguinarians, but with the trajectory that such revelations
> > would be beneficial toward the goal of clinical trials (academics who have
> > demonstrated they are approaching the subject with an open mind) or in the
> > short term, obtaining a donor. It is very important not to share your
> > sanguinarian status for the sake of revelation (mainstream/tabloid media,
> > those who engage us with a noticeable and unshakable pre-conceived belief).
> >
> >    We cannot do clinical trials within the sanguinarian community either.
> > Our findings can very well be biased by as well as dismissed by those
> > outside of the community as confirmation bias. Even if we tried very hard to
> > remain objective in our studies about ourselves, the fact is that we have a
> > personal stake in the matter and subconsciously we can corrupt the resulting
> > data.

Finally a point I don't have an issue with.


> > In addition, it is rather smart to be skeptical about studies done by
> > organizations to support their religion, political ideology, interest group,
> > etc.

Or treatise's for that matter.


> > As an example, many people dismissed the reports coming from Vatican
> > researchers that small writing on the Shroud of Turin was proof of its
> > authenticity on the grounds that the Vatican had a great stake involved in
> > proving the authenticity of the shroud.

Again, point to you. The Shroud, if I remember correctly, has been disproved
via mircoscopic analysis of the "blood." It's turned out to be paint after
all.


> > What has to be done by the sanguinarian community is to share our
> > experiences, without pretense of pre-conceived belief (anonymously,
> > pseudonyms, real names, whichever preferred method) to a sizable volume of
> > testimony to which the scientific community must take notice.
> >
> > *The “Hybrid” Question*
> >    The concept of the “sanguinarian-psi hybrid” is a disingenuous falsehood
> > that is sincerely believed and propagated by metaphysicist practitioners who
> > desired admittance into the early “vampire” community, feeling that they
> > owned part of the term themselves. I do not discount the idea that there can
> > be sanguinarians who are also practitioners of metaphysical vampirism,

Except in that you've already repeated ad nauseum that metaphysics
is nonsense. Again, this placation attempt is inherently flawed to the point
of almost being a veiled attack.


> > however to call this being a “hybrid” is analogous to saying someone who is
> > female and Christian is a mixture between a female and a Christian.
> >
> >    I myself am an “ex-hybrid.” I found the world of energy vampirism very
> > early on in my realization that I was a sanguinarian (I called myself a
> > vampire back then, I no longer call myself a vampire anymore for semantic
> > and political reasons). I was quite freaked out at the bizarreness of the
> > realization and at the thought that for the rest of my life I would have to
> > consume blood if I no longer want to be consumed by the hunger, lethargy,
> > and sensual sensitivity that I have in the past taken for granted. I was
> > quite desperate for any substitute for that dire fate and was willing to
> > accept nearly anything that seemed reasonable. I was taught energy feeding
> > and eventually taught it to others, whether vampire identified or not, since
> > anyone can do it. The energy feeding was quite effective for me, and the
> > subjects I was teaching the energy feeding to could feel the energy course
> > through them. Two or three years later I disavowed any belief in the
> > existence of psi/chi/prana/etc.
> >
Generally when this happens it's because some type of personal revelation
took place that leaves the person somewhat bitter and antagonistic to
whatever they were formally in favor of.


> >
> > The mundane reasons for its effectiveness became quite apparent. Many of
> > the feeding techniques that I employed had a lot in common with meditation,
> > deep breathing, and other stress-relaxing techniques. Stress has been
> > scientifically proven to be related to health: less stress, better health
> > outcomes. It would be folly for someone who meditates to counteract
> > hypertension to claim that they are a “meditation-hypertension” hybrid.

Of course, you've got lots of vampires who also meditate, both psychic and
sanguine, who derive no benefit of satiation from meditation or like
practices. You're making a pretty broad judgement.


> > As for about my subjects feeling the energy when I taught energy feeding
> > techniques, this can not only be attributed to its similarities to stress
> > relaxers, but also it is a tacit, unspoken agreement that this metaphysical
> > energy exists and that teacher and student alike are conditioned to find
> > energy to keep the agreement. It is analogous to people using a Ouija board;
> > those using it have a tacit, subconscious agreement to spell out words.
> > However, when blindfolded and the Ouija board reoriented, nothing but
> > nonsense results.
> >
Again, my milage, and the mileage of various other people, differs from
yours on this account. Both the Ouija board and the energy one, by the way.


> > Those who are sanguinarians and practitioners of metaphysical vampirism are
> > welcome to be part of the sanguinarian community.

Oh, now you're not just the spokesperson of the entire sanguine community
but also the rule maker? Interesting. I think I'm going to go over your post
with Bonewits Cult Evaluation when I'm done posting, just for laughs.


> > However, it is necessary not to equate the two, which would defeat the
> > purpose of partition and greatly hinder the effort to reach our common goal
> > of decreasing stigma, increasing understanding of ourselves, and possibly be
> > delivered from the burden of having to find a donor to sustain yourself.
> >
> > *An Advised Code of Conduct*
> >    When discussing one’s sanguinarianism, it is of the utmost importance to
> > preface your testimony as reflective of your personal experiences rather
> > than a claim of truth.

Such as you're doing here by claiming that the truth is completely physical
and the metaphysics are nonsense.


> > Be honest about not knowing the reasons behind why the way you are. Also I
> > would advise that in describing your sanguinarianism, focus on what changes
> > when blood is consumed. These are the things that will be measured and
> > quantified in clinical trials. Fixed states such as skin complexion, having
> > “fangs”, eye iris colors, and the like are most likely irrelevant and
> > probably far too varied among us.

Completely aside from my other points, that's another thing I've noticed
differs. Most of the changes you've just listed do happen with the
consumption of blood and the "metaphysical nonsense", but have never
happened with outright relaxation techniques, meditation, skin contact or
the like. Your Mileage May Vary, of course.


> > If a sanguinarian does have an interest or engages in the occult or the
> > metaphysical, it is also advisable to maintain discretion with that facet of
> > life as the sanguinarian community has little margin of error in the quest
> > to obtain credibility in order to engage in clinical trials.
> >
> > *In Conclusion*
> >    I do realize that my words are strong and may be quite offensive. To a
> > degree I intend to offend and shock.

Well, at least you're honest. You haven't shocked many, but you have
offended many.


> > I hope to shock sanguinarians and “hybrids” who are currently satisfied
> > with the status quo to realize that their needs are not being met.

Personal value judgement based on your own preconceived notions and
experiences.


> >  I hope to shock metaphysical vampiric practitioners into doubting their
> > own assumptions.

Because it's "obviously" rubbish. Right?


> > Unlike the “sanguinarian v. psi” wars of the 1990s, which was about
> > ownership of the term “vampire,” this is my favored course of action on a
> > different question that only sanguinarians can answer: “Should we sacrifice
> > community unity for the sake of finding out more about ourselves?” My answer
> > is a resounding yes. A second “sang/psi war” would merely be an unfortunate
> > side effect in the greater goal of delivering ourselves from the stigma
> > associated with sanguinarianism and/or the perceived need to consume blood.

See my above about emotional reactions.


> > There is nothing gained or lost by leaving a community in which has been
> > redefined to the point that it no longer pertains to us.

See ya, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.


> > The term “vampire” now belongs to the metaphysicists. They can have it and
> > its Halloweenish connotations. If there is any benefit to the media
> > appearances the “vampire” community had, it is that it added the term
> > “sanguinarian” to mainstream lexicon. Sanguinarians do not need the term
> > “vampire” nor the community which claims the term. The domain of the
> > sanguinarian should be and must be reality

Couldn't resist that last dig there, could you?


> > -Zeta
> > ---
> > AIM: Damnedsoulno7
> > Yahoo: zeta_the_devil
> > ~One life held fast to another
> > Love lives... And I will defend her~
> >
> >

-- -Zeta --- AIM: Damnedsoulno7 Yahoo: zeta_the_devil ~One life held fast to another Love lives... And I will defend her~
Logged

Fear nothing but Fear itself
childofthespiral
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Female
Posts: 170


Twitter.com/wolfeloin


« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2011, 08:29:51 PM »

I'm not active in a large number of OVC message boards, so I don't have the experience others here have. However after reading the posts here recently, it seems to me that those sangs who feel like they've been shit on by psys are only quoting the words and actions of a very small number of them. I had no choice but to feed strictly psy for most of my vampire life, but I have never for a second thought that the blood was just a metaphor. I have never thought, or said, that any vampire type was above any other.

NO ONE is any better than anyone else. We are all EQUAL! When will people get that through their heads?

If the sangs of this community feel like they need to have their own community which completely excludes psys altogether, then I will probably have to leave the OVC for a while until heads get turned back straight. When shutting others out becomes the order of the day, open discussion and equal rights are no longer considered and that's NOT a community I want to have even the most remote of connections with. The line "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" comes to mind.
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After a long and painful absence, I am finding my way once more back to the arms of Goddess.
masticina
Level 3 Contributor
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 89


Rwar I am a tiger


« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2011, 08:55:25 PM »

I'm not active in a large number of OVC message boards, so I don't have the experience others here have. However after reading the posts here recently, it seems to me that those sangs who feel like they've been shit on by psys are only quoting the words and actions of a very small number of them. I had no choice but to feed strictly psy for most of my vampire life, but I have never for a second thought that the blood was just a metaphor. I have never thought, or said, that any vampire type was above any other.

NO ONE is any better than anyone else. We are all EQUAL! When will people get that through their heads?

If the sangs of this community feel like they need to have their own community which completely excludes psys altogether, then I will probably have to leave the OVC for a while until heads get turned back straight. When shutting others out becomes the order of the day, open discussion and equal rights are no longer considered and that's NOT a community I want to have even the most remote of connections with. The line "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" comes to mind.

*purrs*

My Point pretty much to! We vampires are stuck together because of what we are! The method of feeding should matter less then that we are able to support new vampires into a stabilized life. Able to deal with their life without their vampirism getting in the way! Oh well it is a big community .. and sadly hardly as good running as it can. Sad But it is in member participation and ability to put energy into shared needs projects. Yup sounding quite like a religion almost that way.. but just saying that breaking up the Vampire Community would not be the best for new awakened. After all many do roll in through the Gothic/Vampire Poser community.
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Fear nothing but Fear itself
CJ!
Level 2 Contributor
**
Posts: 31



« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2011, 08:58:30 PM »

It's a partial repost from my prior one but I feel it is something that was overlooked and really should be considered by those who are raising doubts or inferring about my motivation.

Why Cure Sanguinarianism? (RKCoon)
A sanguinarian isn’t what I am. A sanguinarian isn’t who I am. It is just something extra I have to deal with: consume blood or pay the consequences. Although we may behave like an identity group I feel it is way too soon and rather pretentious to say that we are one. There are no hard facts about sanguinarianism yet. All we have is testimony and anecdotal evidence. There is nothing that confirms that sanguinarianism is necessarily a permanent condition although if we never get access to clinical trials that may end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sanguinarianism isn’t like homosexuality. The only detriment to being gay was the biases and prejudices of other people. Sanguinarianism have problems outside of social sentiment: if we don’t feed, we get sick. Wouldn’t it be nice to be rid of this extraneous need and the stigma that goes along with it? On the flipside, and speaking in a hypothetical situation given that clinical trials were done, should the medical and/or psychological community offer a treatment that seems worse than just managing my sanguinarianism, this could more solidify sanguinarianism as an identity.

I'll do a full on rebuttal (and even some concurrences) later on tonight or tomorrow. Keep the hits coming.
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LadyOfPales
Level 4 Contributor
****
Gender: Female
Posts: 118

ITS A SPY


« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2011, 09:32:19 PM »

NO ONE is any better than anyone else. We are all EQUAL! When will people get that through their heads?


LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU

PRETEND THE BLUE ONE REPRESENTS PSI
PRETEND THE RED ONE REPRESENTS SANG
HE WANTS THIS


NOT THIS


I should draw pictures for everyone, since it seems that the diction is just too big and "wordy" for you to finish a few paragraphs.
Logged

>:|
NyteMuse
Level 4 Contributor
****
Posts: 119



« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2011, 09:54:31 PM »

If the sangs of this community feel like they need to have their own community which completely excludes psys altogether, then I will probably have to leave the OVC for a while until heads get turned back straight. When shutting others out becomes the order of the day, open discussion and equal rights are no longer considered and that's NOT a community I want to have even the most remote of connections with.

All right, I was a little guilty of this myself before...a sang-only forum isn't just about excluding psis. I know several sangs who have told me about trying to discuss sang-specific traits on mixed forums and got unpleasant responses from the psis (like "EWWWW" or "that's just crazy talk" or "you need to see a shrink"). I think it's shitty that the OVC is like that, but I can believe it. I've seen alleged psis make some pretty out there claims on forums, and much of the time they're not challenged because of the metaphysical hard-to-prove aspect. But still, overall psis don't get challenged as much that's I've seen, or not in the same way.

So no, I don't begrudge letting sangs have some private places where they work out their particulars, provided there isn't a total worldwide secession. And Belfazaar even said that he would consider allowing psis who have proven they want to learn respectfully, which sounds fair to me. But even if they didn't, fine. For the most part of what I've seen, it's not about excluding psis, or anyone...it's about creating a safe space to talk about their issues without having to censor or worry about what others will say.
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RKCoon
*
Level 5 Contributor
*
Gender: Male
Posts: 460



« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2011, 11:42:32 PM »

A few comments, as I wanted to focus and give this topic more proper attention --

Sangsavvy - do you normally get this offended when someone offers their opinion that doesn't gel with your narrow view? You've done this to me in particular, and one or to others actually, and  CJ has as much right to make an article to state her beliefs as you or I do here, so kindly, get off your damned high horse,or, as you would instruct to others, feel free to take your snooty ass elsewhere.

CJ - to me, vampirism is not a be all nor end all of what or who I am, nor do I personally see a need to 'cure' it. In all actuality, I consider vampirism something of a reflection of the very darkest traits of humanity itself, not to be rejected or removed or cured, but respected for what it is.

Octarine -- I realize you havent a lot of experience with western vampirism, so I think i should point out that this rift has been there, practically made (not sure if it WAS or not, but it definitely got a massive boost) by people like MB pushing their ideology and going out of their way to minimize sangs every chance they had. this rift is a very deep, rather old one, and as of late, the sangs have been growing both impatient and flat out intolerant of the psionic plague, as it has been called.

Darklilone -- Ultimately, its a case of you BELIEVING you fed, with a sympathetic person on the other end eager to go along with it. Sangs, if nothing else, can physically PROVE the action of feeding. It may of been real to you, but conversely, there are those that fully believe a god or some deity speaks to them, telling them to go on murder sprees and the like.

Zaar - i tend to agree with you that many of the psis, while not admitting it, would be quite pleased to see sangs dissapear. Yeano not gonna happen.

Zeta, via Masticina -- regarding the comment that theres evidence to support metaphysical energy workings and such - Prove it. Show us the scientific studies (and no, not MBs crap that was handily obliterated by yours truly)  that state unequivocally  that yes in fact it exists as a measurable form. much like god and such, you cant.

Spiral - while I would agree we are all born equal, it is actions that differentiate us - and when the psis as a whole can get off their ivory towers and admit that, the sangs will take the apology i believe.

General comments - Firstly, I am not sure which tweaks the noses of psis more - the not so spoken fact that psionics is seem as optional as compared to sang, or the fact that for all their bluster, even the queen of psi herself, MB, had her ass handed to her (including but not limited by to yours truly) when she attempted to 'scientifically' prove psionics, OR the stark realization that psionics has more to do with religion - and in particular, FAITH - than sanguine vamps do.  Secondly, eastern 'science' is not what would be considered science in its purest sense - a lot of conjecture with less than substantive evidence to back it up. Granted, I am talking a bit out of my ass on this one, this is simply my experience and knowledge on the matter. (IE, Philosophy does not a hard science make).

I should also mention that when I first came onto the scene at DD&D, I had no clue why it was i felt how and what i felt. I began learning and researching, and then began to believe i was a psi - which got abruptly terminated when i first had blood. All doubts, all questions, gone in a night. These days, a decade later, I look back at the energy experiments - and, more derisively, all the nonsense Ive been accused of, and I cant help but realize what a placebo trying to do energy work was for me. And, as pointed out here, I aint the only one with similar experiences.   Though I certainly WISH certain psis were only a figment of my hallucinations, it would make my and others lives much simpler to not have to weed out the fluff.

And ya know whats really telling about all this? few nights ago myself and Nadia had a little 'discussion' with JP and his followers -- well, ok, more of Nadia and I slaughtering idiocy with logic, reason and ration -- and she and I, a pair of sangs, were accused of every sin under the sun (according to psis); negativity feeding, attacking energetically,and so on - all for point out inconsistencies and illogical comments made by certain individuals. This went on for well over two hours, in the end, yea, Nadia and I nailed the goofs to the proverbial and online cross - just by using our brains rather than letting our emotions and imaginations run free.  Ultimately, more and more, it is showing to be that when there is an issue with the ageless 'sang vs psi' debate, it is started by either an oversensitive psi not liking their illogical comments pointed out, OR, similarly, a sang catching a psi in double talk.


oh, as a final note, CJ wasnt being a bitch -- I however, AM being one. Wink
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Automotive Necromancer
Mistress Mikyla
Level 2 Contributor
**
Posts: 14


« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2011, 11:58:28 PM »

I had to take a few days to digest this because the language comes across as intentionally offputting, despite what others might state to the contrary. Plus, I feel it is best to weigh my words carefully. I am not intending to ostracize anyone here - I just want to state my opinion. I will not be responding to the post in its entirety - just portions of it, so please excuse the snipping.

CJ states:
" By far the one way that the “vampire” community affects my life is in the public perception of the community affixed to all who belong. Public perception is the most important factor in determining whether or not I can get a donor or whether or not if I were outed I would lose some sort of standing in my life. The current status of public perception of our community is, to put it mildly, quite embarrassing."

I reply:
Why? If the vampire community is only of use to you when you don't have a vampire, then why is it so embarasssing? If you are not an active, regular participant within the community, why should public perception matter to you? Also, unless you are in here using your real name, how would public perception even affect your life? I am more embarassed by people who come in here and flat out state they use the community only when it suits their purpose, but that those of us who do not align with their personal opinions are posers. Pfft.

You know, right now this is the only thing I have to say. I am sure I'll speak more on this later but we're on mandatory overtime right now and I am dead ass tired.
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sorry, but my "Givafuk" is broken


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« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2011, 01:09:12 AM »

you know... this may not came to this point if it wasnt for  Slapphowolf....
y'all can thank her if ya like
bitch all you want too.... but she is all yours!
lmfao
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CJ!
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« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2011, 01:40:39 AM »

This is a reply to the rest of the people who posted after my first mass reply with the exception of the Zeta rebuttal. I feel since he (she?) put in some effort in a point by point reply I should respect this person with a similar level of attention.

First just a few direct responses with our initial contestant being the one in the back frantically raising her hand trying to get my attention. That would be you SangSavvy. I understand you would like to know a little more about me. Well you know my moniker here and you can tell by my avatar that I hail from the Great City of Chicago. I enjoy cooking and rock music. One of my favorite bands is Bad Religion and I would like to offer a quote from them as my response to you: You're a sidewalker cipher speaking prionic jive. So I give you me. I give you nothing.

Quick note on paindancer's statements. You are correct about a mechinism still existing. This could be applied to not only a medical paradigm but a psychological one as well. It is just a matter of getting ourselves as a group in position to find those mechanism.

Which leads me to the main point of this rebuttal. What really seems to bother me is that so few people seem to even want to consider my stated end goals (better access to blood or not needing blood anymore) for face value. It's as if these goals are so bold and unprecedented within the community as if they were unbelievable and some more familiar explanation is the true hidden reason. I have no problem putting the status of sanguinarian or "vampire" on the line or having it deconstructed. It means nothing to me. The metaphysical practitioners should have now worry; science can't touch them.

Unfortunately science won't touch us sanguinarians either given the status quo. The sad thing is that we CAN'T all work together. Psis and hybrids are outside the paramaters of modern science since psi/chi/prana are intangible. My biggest fear is that if sanguinarians maintain their ties to the greater vampire community that we will be dismissed under the same grounds. The reason I posted the AIDS activist example was to demonstrate that access of knowledge is a political process. We, mostly by our own design, left ourselves no room for error. I am being black and white because I have to be. The slightest tint of grey and the gatekeepers will shut us out. Why be in the fringes when you don't have to be?
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« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2011, 02:02:09 AM »

Well, I agree with you totally, CJ, regarding the psis - the only risk they have is when they open their mouths. (Although, amusingly enough, if one were to accept their feeding without consent or permission, they would be the very leeches some see vamps as, bottom feeders, those that take without consent. Good thing for them its not provable, eh?)

However, regarding the availability of blood, or more to the point, not needing blood at all - Personally, despite having not fed in a while, it is still not something I would want to trade in. Would this 'cure' you seek, cj, only eliminate the need? or would it also take the positives one gets from a feed? I wonder. Further, I do have to ask - why do you call yourself a vampire, if you dont WANT to be one? If you want to cure the need to feed, it would seem to me that you dont want to BE one at all. In all reality, to me, the problem of exposure is more of a concern to me than the concern of lack of feeding, a concern that would rise, not lower, with efforts to make us 'more acceptable'. What is your response to this?
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Automotive Necromancer
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