Cryonics, Cult Movement or Legit Science?
October & November 2010 - Rick Ross Forumhttp://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,64749,93124#msg-93124
Shannon Vyff"Well, I researched cryonics and set up my trust due to the potential of the science, the legit bits of science. I own my trust, no cryonics organization owns it, it is set to give the 1/20th of my current life insurance policy to Alcor, the rest goes to my family and non-profits of my choice. I've been a long time La Leche League leader, and will be donating to breastfeeding research. I also have funds set aside for the United Nations Children's Fund. I'm sure I'll change the allocation of my trust over my life as I'm currently 35, there are other organizations I give to annually that are favorites.
Although I signed up because I see the potential of the science, I do not believe it will work. I think there is at best a 1% or 2% chance, but to me it is common sense to try it, won't make a difference otherwise. As I've followed the cryonics community over the past decade I've seen a lot of gossip, and at times errors by leadership. The reasons I think it won't work are that the businesses could go out of business, also the science may never be there--to restore, or scan etc. I've seen some disturbing things, such as all I found out in the past few months about leadership at ACS. I have plenty of emails showing I was being a friend to a woman who was excited about cryonics, promoting it and also liked to flirt with men & women. I shared details about my own past, and said that I thought some people might be interacting with her because they wanted to flirt, not that they were interested in cryonics. She had a hurtful background similar to mine, and I shared how I had overcome my own. I tried to be a positive role model, talking parenting, talk daily life stuff--things friends do. I did not realize that some in ACS leadership were manipulating her for sexy pictures by giving her money, nor where some of their money comes from. When she had said she was freaked out by someone "high up" (she didn't tell me at first who it was, but did a few weeks after it happened) -invited her to a three-way, I told her that it was inappropriate and that she could just talk to them about her trust, stick to the business matters. She was setting a trust up for her family that would be owned by ACS, she did not want to own the trust on her own. There are many messages where I said she could talk to people about cryonics without flirting, also what professional and non-professional behaviour was, particularly to the few ACS emails she did forward to me. The point is that I empathized with her, since being introduced by email in Nov of '10, was her friend and when she unexpectedly left her husband it was a surprise to me (I have many emails where she talks about loving him and being devoted to him, and agreeing with me that true love is wonderful, when I had gushed about my husband)--when she left her husband got into her email and found a bunch of creepy messages from some ACS leaders. He found indication that ACS had funded her leaving, he was understandably livid and started forwarding emails from her inbox. He forwarded all her recent emails till she regained her account, he had sent them to everyone on her contact list (this was March of this year right after she'd left, and they have been circulating ever since). Some of the emails were my private messages, some were hers to others (where she had presented a fantasy story of her creation, she had different stories/faces for different people), some of the emails were from other people--many of them people I've never communicated with (such as the ACS members). A few of the emails have been edited and posted, it is hard to figure out who sent what, who is talking to who--or what the time line is. I have more and have considered putting up some that I have to show a clearer picture, but I don't post people's emails without their position--which is why I'm posting here. I've seen this "Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???" thread before and always thought it would be fun to come discuss whether or not Cryonics is a cult. There certainly could be some elements. I really should read through all the pages though before I'd start into that discussion ;) none-the-less here I am because I was upset with how my name is up, in an email from someone else. I'm hoping Richie will take down the email that has speculated details from my marriage (yes my husband is awesome, I love him very much). I request that the site editors will remove my personal details at least.
There are a lot of great people in cryonics, and people working to make it better. I've never had any paid position, but I have volunteered. I've also volunteered in many other organizations such as LLL, UU churches, school PTAs and schools. One reason that I've not ever written in this thread is because I stay quite busy with my three children, just this evening I was helping my eldest with her Day of the Dead homework art project when an email came in asking if I'd seen this thread, providing a link. I had to wait a bit before I was able to come check it out. What I saw posted was speculation about my husband that I found hurtful and untrue, and not really germane to whether or not Cryonics is a cult--Temple of Vampire might be ;) I'm reading about that one right now, I'd heard a rumour before about some members being cryonicists and don't know if it is true or not. There are less than two thousand cryonicists, but there are Buddhists, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Atheists, UUs and others that I've not heard of. I don't know much about TOV it is a religion or philosophy, but as a UU I'm tolerant of other's beliefs and like to learn from them. The UU curriculums I've taught children with will look at all the tenets, the good things, the faith, and we discuss the things we would take, or leave. The classes are designed to teach children how to think and analyse for themselves. I'd have to learn more about TOV to see what their beliefs are. Anyway, since I'm here--I'll have to follow the thread and say why I don't think Alcor or CI are cults, when I get some time. Please at least edit my name out of the private email :)"
Stoic"I found the Satanism, Vampirism/Cryonics link quite astonishing but on reflection not too suprising as all those organisations are concerned with the dream of immortality in some guise or another and are all utilising the natural human fear of death to promote their scams.
It would be more accurate to call the 'fear of death' a fear of the extingishing of the individual mind as that is what humans are most attached to and most fear losing, not the biological aging and death of the body which is accepted as inevitable on some level by all adults.
All occult systems are primarily concerned with this 'immortality of the individual mind' beyond the physical limitations of the gross human body."
Shannon Vyff"I have at two different times met people who really believed that cryonics would work, and they were a bit out there in my opinion (one of them thought humanity is creating a computer god, that will run on the power of the stars--etc. etc. --very odd, the other actually just talked like cryonics will work, no ifs, it was weird). I can understand someone who has an 80% belief etc, but to be at 100% is a bit strange in my opinion. From what I've read so far, the TOV seems to believe that they are doing what they can to truly be immortal--I'm still not sure if they believe they actually will or not though. Most cryonicists I've met have a different level of what they believe. I've met young people who are signed up with Alcor but really don't care at all about any of the politics, don't care to follow what is going on, and just like having arrangements set up in case something happens to them. I know there are about 2,000 people signed up, a very small amount (including CI and Alcor--ACS keeps their membership private, but everyone I've talked to thinks they have only a handful, if anyone beyond their leadership). I figure I've met in person at various conferences (Accelerating Change, CR Society, Transvision, Convergence), futurist meetings (London, Austin, & Portland), and at Alcor (I visited there twice before I became a member) -I've probably met a few hundred cryonicists. On line I've heard of, or "e-met" several hundred more. I try to add CI or Alcor members to my Facebook for instance, but the group is so small, with no really community organization --that none of my real life, day to day friends are Cryonicists. Someday I hope to have a live-time friend who is a cryonicists, but for now I skate with (I do roller derby), attend Church, go out for coffee with parents of my kids' friends, have neighbours (our new neighbours here in TX are awesome and have a grandson that comes to play with my son), attend LLL meetings, attend school volunteering events--all with people who like to hear about cryonics, think it is interesting, but don't actually sign up. I'm used to that, and I understand it--it is almost impossible for cryonics to work. For me, I'm signed up but know I might not get presereved--also that it probably won't work, but would be a nice surprise if it did. I don't think the future will be perfect, or much different from today. What we have today is like magic compared to 500 years ago, there will still be problems 500 to a thousand years from now, I may or may not get a chance to help with them. I focus on doing good in my life now, enjoying my family, learning new things, and being able to donate what I can to non-profits that I support (social action oriented, we do Heifer Foundation for Christmas and Save the Children). But why relay all this? Probably to show that I'm in the middle as cryonicists go. Yes, I'll be public and talk about it, volunteer from time to time--but I don't do it full time, I also don't ignore the whole community. I love people, why they do what they do, in all the social groups I'm a part of, even on forums. Evolutionary Psychology has always been an interest of mine, but I love about all science. If you follow me on FB I'm often posting links to phys.org if I'm not talking about things I'm doing that day with my kids (today we have girl scouts over for swimming, my eldest is doing Japanese, my two girls have piano lessons, we are going to view the Pumpkin Trail later and this weekend we are traveling to Austin for a friend's wedding, staying with my mom, seeing our friends at First UU, going to a Day of the Dead Party :) ) but, that is mainly my life. Regarding just one quick web-definition, I can only think of how one cryonics organization might fit in, but I don't see that in the Alcor or CI members:"
richiekgb"instead of cut/pasting from your cryonics tracts tell us the truth:
You are on the board of these organisations which Melody Maxim mentions in her blog right?
So tell us who is really funding David Styles - Are you involved too?
What about the other ToV Adept Erik Bourgouise who seems to be involved with Cryonics Belgium?
Why did David Styles REALLY Step down from Immortality Institute?
Whats the link with satanism and cryonics - is it some kind of REAL ice cool Dracula Coffin?"
Shannon Vyff"I'm not on the board of any organizations that I saw listed on Melody's blog. I don't know anyone at ASC, I'm not on CI's board, not on Alcor's or Cryonics UK or Eurcrio.
I don't know who is funding David Styles. I have met him, he seemed nice--but I did say I thought Cryonics UK should not have "A ticket to the future" on its site, as that was misleading in my opinion. I determined he is someone who really believes that cryonics will work, and I thought that it was nice that there was a young person that was volunteering in the UK, to learn stand-by and how to help UK cryonicists get suspension. I had no idea he had any background with TOV or COS when I had met him--that came out later and I was not sure what to believe, things I saw on your site (Richie, but also on Melody's) were new to me recently. I don't know how much David Styles believes those things, some of them seem damaging to me. I was living in the UK last year, and had attended some of the weekend Cryonics UK trainings--but never heard about Eucrio, that has been new since I left. I don't know who funds it, Melody knows more about that.
I've never met Erik Bourgouise, and didn't know he was, or if he is, COS or TOV.
I am on the board at Immortality Institute and am proud of the anti-aging research that we are able to fund each year, you are welcome to check out our forums to see what goes on there. There are a lot of discussions there from supplements & CR, to nanotech and various ways technological or biological ways of attaining life extension--from the realistic, to the far-out-there ideas that are more science fiction. There are also always discussions about changing the name to something more mainstream, some people like using Immortality, others want something they see as more realistic. David stated why he stepped down, and there are public statements that can be read. When he ran for a position earlier this year his other organizational affiliations were not known. There have been allegations that he has not spoken about publicly, I don't know if he is actively in leadership at TOV or COS. I do know that he took on conference planning and stepped down from leadership at ImmInst to focus on the conference. You'll have to ask him though to find out what he is currently doing.
About the cryonics and vampire stuff, I find it weird. I had heard a rumour years ago that some cryonicists were alleged to be COS, and didn't know if it was true or not. I had never met one, or knowingly met one--and had met many normal people that are in cryonics. I figured that cryonics attracts all types of people, and would attract some hedonistic lifestyle types as well as the more principled family oriented types. This recent allegation that all TOV leaders are required to be cryonicists, seems strange. I certainly had not heard that, but figure there probably are not that many TOV leaders that sign up--because while cryonics is a small field, TOV seems smaller. I suppose I would not know who was TOV and who was not though, as they have some sort of vow to secrecy it appears. I don't know how widespread it is, but suspect more will be coming out about it in the future. I do find it an unfortunate connection with cryonics due to all the obvious jokes and associations one could make. There is a lot that needs to be done to help cryonics become more professional, and hopefully people will focus on how to do that more."
The Anticult"Who is interested in a person who is a self-proclaimed "Vampire" in Europe, to be in charge of draining the blood out of dead bodies, to prepare them for cryonics freezing?
Someone who calls himself a "Vampire" is going to drain the blood out of the dead body, and then replace it with their alleged cryonics antifreeze?
What is this "Vampire" going to do with that blood that gets drained out of the corpse?
It might sound ridiculous, but there are "vampire cults" [www.apologeticsindex.org] where there have been police reports of them drinking cows blood, and human blood, in a perverse ritual.
Of course most of it is goth-counter-culture fashion, but there are reports already of bizarre rituals in some cases.
So what is going on?
And of course, trying to cash-in on the TV shows like "Twilight" about vampires which are popular now, could be seen as another cryonics marketing move. After all, the "vampires" want to be immortal, so its a market of people who already hold that belief. Using marketing to try and transfer that to cryonics, sounds right up their alley."
richiekgb"Well Transvison 2010 let themselves down by allowing that Con Artist David "Langueasesta" Styles go ahead with his snake oil presentation - You would of thought Shannon Vyff (on the board of Transvision) might of tried to pull him being the person he is and who else is behind Eucrio (Temple of Vampires Adepts George C Smith and Erik Bourgouise).
Video - [telexlr8.blip.tv]
Also Speaking in other video's are usual Suspects Max More and Aubrey De Grey and other Cryonics Activists Natasha Vita More, Anders Sandberg and Eugene Leitl.
Just show's they don't care - despite all the "dirt" coming out about Cryonics they are still mass marketing to us Europeans. You would think that some of these so called "progressive thinkers" would have some integrity and not want to be associated with the Eucrio Scam by now.
I suppose they are hoping that European Transhumanist's don;t read english websites and are unaware that David Styles and The Eucrio Crew used to run a Vampire Pyramid Scheme."
The Anticult"In-Securing Your Sub-Optimum Cryopreservation?
Is it Grandfathering, or is it cryonics-extortion, like doing a deal with a mafia loan-shark?
You join at one price, and then the price keeps getting jacked-up, sometimes by 33% in one year.
And if you don't pay, then you don't get "emergency" services, which according to their cryonics ideology, means you are a dead bag of flesh, and your eternal life of an immortal is canceled.
If you are a broke-ass cryonics customer who can't pay the piper's inflated prices then...
-----------------
QUOTE: "Such alterations may include, but are not limited to, using fewer personnel, less sophisticated procedures, less expensive cryoprotectants, no cryoprotectants, or limiting the extent of cryoprotection of whole body patients."
"At this time, those who have provided less than $80,000 for a neuropreservation or less than $200,000 for a whole body cryopreservation may not receive a washout. As Alcor raises its rates, members who want to have the best chances of receiving an optimum cryopreservation will need to increase their funding to match Alcor’s new rates."
------------------------
So they are going to let you rot, if you do not pay up.
Its more psychological leverage, to get more money.
They are also setting up their Cryonicsville in Scottsdale Az, and are encouraging terminally ill people to move there. They even say they may pay you $5000 to move there, if you are terminal. (they got every angle covered, they save much more than $5000 if you move there)
Next, the UPSELL. To a private charter jet, another $40,000.
And great news, as of 2012, their price is now $200,000 to get froze-up. (33% increase from this year).
What is this about? Its about Qualifying the Customer, and psychological leverage in sales.
If you are a broke-ass cryonics believer, you are going to rot.
So its about moving to a higher order customer, and also pushing people into more "insurance". (guess who does that insurance deal?). They say right there, they encourage people to change their insurance beneficiary. Contact them, and they will help you set this up!!
Someone could do the math on all the new charges, and upselling. But it looks like the new price for a full-body freezing, is now $300,000 with the additional costs.
And note the article is designed psychologically, to create FEAR of losing your fake Immortality fantasy. If you don't pay, they are NOT going to do a fancy-freezing on you, and just chuck you in the freezer.
That is like a religion saying, if you don't give a proper donation, then you are going to Purgatory, and just might not make it to heaven, so pay up.
These are quite clever people, who have all the angles covered.
Notice how its all coming true, psychological manipulation being used to jack-up the prices, into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for each person. Encouraging vulnerable elderly people to move to Cryonicsville Az."
The Cryonics Cachethecryonicscache.webs.com
richiekgb"Many Thanks to G. for having the guts to post this stuff up - PLEASE CACHE I DONT THINK IT WILL STAY UP LONG - this is blatent cultlike behaviour by the TOV and cryonicists and discussions about how to cover up information that they feel damages thier cult.
And a line reads: "Don't worry, I'm carrying more secrets than the Titanic, I can handle one more". - Ben Best.
My video has been taken down but there was not thing about it that was not TRUE!
The Vampire Expose! - I know for a fact that A ex-cult member of ToV screenshotted this before they "came out the compound" and posted it to googlesites. This person has had a lot of abuse and mindgames played on them of a occultic nature. Please bare in mind that they are VERY HURT so please do not attack him/her for being deceptive at the beginning. This information is posted to show exactly the mentality of the cryonicist/satanic/vampires and the lengths they will go to to silence their critics."
Stoic"If Linguascelesta, aka David Stiles (still apparently an active vampire 2 weeks ago) truly believes in the vampire immortality stuff, why does he need a cryonics contract as well? I thought that vampires had the life after death angle covered, a cryonics contract as well seems a bit 'belt and braces' for a True Believer.
His chosen name BTW translates as 'villainous tongue,' not quite the fearful fanged beast of nightmare, more as savvy Tonto from the Lone Ranger observed about men who "speak with forked tongue"
'Originally Posted By: Gibor
Since we have to assume we were lied to at some point along the way, I doubt it is safe to assume he still has a contract.
Perhaps, Adept Linguscelesta can answer that.
Posted by: Linguascelesta Re: ******* d'Anjou - 03/11/10 07:03 AM
It is certain that he did get one. He pretended to have one before he did, but then he made up the middle-ground. I know this becase I helped him to sign up.
I would expect him to let it lapse, but cannot day for sure.
What is certain is that he has a DNA archive. I know this because I saw him do it, and he asked me to look after it for him. Thus, I still have it. From a Dayside perspective, I have the ability to resurrect my friend.
This did give me comfort, until I realised that, as far as I can see, his Oath is broken and his life therefore forfeit.
I swear by my Lifeforce and the Breath that sustains it
My loyalty and obedience to Hekal Tiamat
I shall live by the Force of Fang and Claw
I will forever obey the One True Law
I pledge my Will, my Blood, and my Power
I Commit myself totally from this very hour
I am of and for the Body of the Blood
I now serve only the Great Dragon God
If this Oath be ever broken by me
May I be denied Immortality
I regretfully do not see how this Oath could be held to be kept in this situation.
In such a case I cannot see how I should maintain (and subsequently use to resurrect him) what is probably his last hope of life. Even if I didn't sign up to be Lingua the Vampire Slayer, I have my own Oath to maintain.'"
richiekgbThe story is George C Smith (AKA Lucas Martel/Nemo) has a backround of Dodgy "self-help" scams: Trancendal Meditation, Psychic readings, stock markets, Martial arts and something called "the anger cure".
The Temple of the Vampire is a cult which practices the religion of "Vampirism". Its members believe that they practice an ancient religion which they claim has been known by various names over the centuries: Order of the Dragon, Temple of the Dragon, and Temple of the Vampire Dragon Goddess Tiamat.
The Temple believes its membership is made up of those who have "realized their difference from the masses of humanity and discovered they resonate with the night, know they are predators, and want something more out of life".
The public face of the Temple was officially organized in 1989, though they claim their religion goes back much further. The Temple is a secretive occult organisation that is run by an council of members of the Inner Circle or Order of Prometheus.
There are two levels of membership in the Temple. General lifetime membership is available to anyone who purchases a copy of The Vampire Bible from the Temple Active membership in the Temple requires members to pay a monthly subscription (however, members of the Priesthood of UR have the option to pay $100 a year for active membership) .
Apparently to rise to the highest level "Adept" status you have to prove your "devotion" to the cult by purchasing a cryonics contract - then you literally become a "Undead God" in the eyes of the cult. These Adepts then are used by smith to bully other member's into proving their devotion and becoming Adepts and to promote cryonics and other things through other less secret organisation's like Imminst. Its basically a pyramid scheme that George C Smith has developed to punt cryonics institute contracts to people who like the occult from what i can gather.
Below are the more interesting posts by these "adepts":
- Posted by David Styles Aka Lingucelesta
"Originally Posted By: Devilmaycare
This member has a cryonics contract too. Very suprising to see such a member quit."
- In fairness, Persephone and I prodded and poked him into that at great length.
"Originally Posted By: Ishkur
Good to know, and it still appears that we need to address the obvious linkage of Cryonics, Immortality Institute, and the Temple before things get stickier. "
- Posted by David Styles Aka Lingucelesta
Look forward to an update when you are able. Thanks. smile
So, he is doing what he can to link the Temple, CoS, and cryonics as much as possible, and to reveal as much personal information as he knows of Temple members.
He has posted publicly to the following places:
ImmInst
Initially assumed to be a troll with a grudge against me. Was met with some responses such as "Is this for real? If so, I can't help thinking, who cares? My interactions with David on the boards have always been positive". Thread was moved to ImmInst's "Free Speech Forum" which is an unmoderated area where people are allowed to express whatever wacko opinions they want provided they do not break the law.
I deleted one post from the chain, in which he linked to an old web archiving site. The post went to a "trash can" forum, so I deleted it from there as well. This will have been untraceable provided nobody was watching at the time. I am trying to minimise the extent to which I use my admin powers there over this, as any actions I take imply underhandedness if noticed.
Temple member Alert is a moderator at ImmInst, and he is looking out for me. Neither ImmInst nor ******* know of his Temple involvement. He should not take too many actions on my behalf though, as it was I who initially recommended he be made a moderator (for which I was able to give plenty of reasons and an impressive cryonics-related CV on his behalf, so this will not have looked at all suspicious).
The Chairman of the Board of ImmInst has taken the view that it is none of ImmInst's business what Director do in their spare time or hold as religious or affiliatory proclivities, and to back this up he cites a number of fringe religion connections that have been perfectly accepted in ImmInst's past, not least of all start-up money from a David Lucifer of a "Church of Virus", amongst other things that subjectively may be questionable.
The erstwhile Executive Director (now Lead Engineer, and technically holding no political power any more, but as he used to be ED he knows the system and how it can be used) advises that if a member of ImmInst Leadership were to be OPENLY associated with the Church of Satan (his emphasis), and ImmInst took no direction to remove said leader, he'd feel a need to resign immediately and disavow any connection with ImmInst. This he says is a matter of personal security and social consequences.
His reason for beef with the CoS is what he sees as incompatibility with one of the Satanic Laws of the Earth, that goes "If someone bothers you in open territory, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him".
Other members of ImmInst Leadership have now researched the CoS, and are presently arguing the case for the CoS being a non-religious, more anti-religious, organisation of rational atheists who use the S-word for effect.
I'm glad that they are arguing this case, because although I could argue it better, it would rather peg me as a Satanist.
By the way, I have neither confirmed nor denied anything, myself. I have made practical objective comments focussing on managing the PR situation into which ImmInst is placed. I have given the impression that the rumours are obviously false, but I have taken care to not actually deny anything, in case I need to explain the situation openly.
This has not gone un-noticed by the Chairman, whose lawyer's mind seems to be in accord with mine, and he re-iterates that I do not need to confirm or deny anything, but that if I lied then this would be more of an issue.
So now I will not have to answer anything official within ImmInst. What I will still have to do for now is to manage any off-board personal enquiries from friendly people asking if I can tell them on the quiet whether the allegations are true or not.
The moderators were crying out for permission to IP-ban ******* for trolling. Since it is within ImmInst's rules that posters can, in the Free Speech Forum, talk objectively about ImmInst Leadership without fear of censorship, this was turned down. Until ******* helpfully referred to me as a cunt, which earned him a ban.
It is recognised that any action to remove me (or even to suggest the possibility of such to ImmInst's membership) would draw more attention to negative PR and is therefore inadvisable.
Facebook
******* has posted several Temple member's legal identities online. Apparently this was on the Temple imposter page, though I did not see this personally.
Aenigma's blog
He tried to post there, but moderator preview was enabled so the comments never got posted.
My blog
He posted several comments there, which I have now removed. I followed up by enabling moderator preview so this cannot reoccur there.
Flickr
He posted pictures from the Hellfire Caves CoS Conclave, along with captions identifying people, to include Aenigma, Nemo, Isabel, myself, and myself.
He has emailed privately at least the following individuals:
UmbraeNoctem, Temple member
He sent a private message on Facebook, similar to the old ones sent about by Nicholas Strathloch, imploring Temple members to poke through the scam of the Temple. Threatens that "we" will bring down "this hoax" from the inside, implying that he has a collaborator in Active Membership. This is likely, but not necessarily, a bluff.
He then posted on ImmInst, outing UmbraeNoctem there by his legal name.
Alan Sinclair, Cryonics UK President
He forwarded the email to me. In it, ******* is imploring him to question whether someone like me should be allowed to organise CUK. Alan said that he assumed this was rubbish but wanted to let me know so I could deal with it.
I advised him that I'd received these from all over the place, but thanked him for helping me to know how far and wide it was being spread, and said that I wasn't sure how to deal with it, adding in a judicious use of humour, asking rhetorically how one goes about proving one is not a Vampire. I also expressed a hope that this is taken less seriously than Larry Johnson's nonsense.
Alan replied saying that it looked like more funny-business from Garrett Smyth or Mike Darwin, and asked if I wanted him to reply as though he was taking it very seriously to see if he can learn more information.
I told him that I had found that it was a different nut with a different grudge, and that it was a disgruntled ex-CI member. I expressed a hope that if ignored, he'd pipe down.
- Posted by David Styles Aka Lingucelesta
It came to my attention that Aenigma has been "outed" regards to the CoS to Sven, one of my fellow Directors at ImmInst, and Sven's reaction was favourable.
I used Sven therefore to test the waters of the Board of Directors, and spoke with him unofficially regarding the Temple. He responded favourably, and after a long discussion, his final question was "How can I join? Not now, during all this obviously, but later if I want to, how can I join? It seems to make good sense to me".
Sven reported to me regarding the meeting that I skipped where, as expected, this issue was discussed. I had deliberately missed the meeting to avoid answering tricky questions that might be (and were) raised. I blamed the date being wrong in the Google Calendar, which was helpful.
It seemed the overall sentiment was that the Board was behind me but would prefer me to be honest (recognising that I had neither confirmed nor denied anything, and continuing the assertion of my right to avoid commenting if desired).
To this end, I wrote a statement for the Board of Directors, so that they can know the element of truth upon which various lies have been based.
So far the only comment in response to this statement has been from Sven, arguing the case for keeping things quiet if possible.
I had some email interaction with Alan Sinclair of Cryonics UK, who is now taking it surprisingly badly. I think however that it is only his poor communication skills that are preventing him from understanding the concepts involved. When they sink in, he should be ok. He thinks that our membership, and the leadership of CI and Alcor, should know about this, and suggests indirectly that CUK should publicly condemn me, which would probably do more to alienate CUK as an entity than me as an individual.
I have given him Enneagram keys, and Carnegie treatment, hoping to help him to understand that cutting Us out of cryonics is not possible and would not be desirable even if it were possible, and that if necessary we would go ahead and continue the current level of progress without him, but that we'd much rather still have him on board. Gently making it clear that if it comes down to a loss of him or a loss of me, it will be a loss of him and we'll be sad about that loss.
Incidentally, the worst Alan could do is call for me to be impeached. This would require a two thirds majority vote of members present at a meeting that has been called for discussing a complaint against me. He would probably not be able to get such a vote, because Temple members make up around 1/3 of CUK membership now, and they will support reason, as will our overseas members whom I'll enable to attend the meeting from a distance and vote favourably too.
I spoke with the leader of Alcor Portugal about this, with whom I work a lot, and he is entirely reasonable.
He tells me that because making a judgement based on the rants of one person in the internet is no way to make a decision about the organisations, he will read the literature available on their websites, telling me that if all is as I have said it is, then he sees no problem beyond the PR issue, which he trusts me to handle.
He then went on to tell me about the importance of not judging an organisation on its membership, and the importance of instead referring to its own materials in order to make a judgement. I told him that he was a wise man and that I wished more people understood this.
Ben Best advised that it may be sensible to prepare a statement for the CI Board of Directors, such that there is a good solid first impression of the information, as it seems unlikely to avoid it being raised.
He left the decision as to whether to do so or remain silent in my hands (he would not mention anything about the Temple to the Board of Directors without my permission), so I have given him a statement that he may hand to the Board of Directors at his discretion; this statement is a modified version of the one I earlier wrote for ImmInst.
It goes thus:
Quote:
There have recently been some statements made about me quite publicly. Of these, a couple are true, and most are false.
After much consideration, and consultation with colleagues, it has been decided that I should address these issues. (I will mention in advance that while I have been evasive, I have at no point denied anything that is true or said anything that is false. Ironically, given how I have been betrayed, I value trust very highly and avoid lying at all costs).
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I don't know if this has come to your attention, but David Styles, a member of the [ImmInst] board of directors, seems to have some dodgy and questionable affiliations.
That would depend on one's definition of "dodgy" and "questionable", bearing in mind that very, very many people in organisational leadership positions are Freemasons and nobody blinks at this.
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First of all, he is a member of the Church of Satan, where he has the rank of "Warlock". This isn't so serious and would have no effect on him being in the board of directors.
I am a member of the Church of Satan. What this means is that I am an atheistic, materialistic, pragmatic realist who enjoys life to the fullest, and acts rationally rather than irresponsibly. After all, Christianity argues that everyone makes mistakes and God will forgive all. Satanism champions instead the idea of "responsibility to the responsible", which means that if I err, I have to deal with the consequences. This makes for more responsible people.
I do indeed hold the title of "Warlock". This means that the Church of Satan has recognised me as somebody who is a mover-shaker who a) gets things done and b) has good people skills.
It is worth noting that the Church of Satan condemns any criminal activities and does not allow such of its members.
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Secondly, he is also a member of a suspicious "secret society" called the "Temple of the Vampire."
I am a member of the Temple of the Vampire, which is a secret society. By "suspicious", I can only assume this is colourful word salad as the word has no logically inferable meaning here.
It is worth noting here that the Temple of the Vampire will permanently Excommunicate any member who cannot obey the law. As a result, the Temple has a more squeaky clean image than most groups of most kinds.
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It's some pseudo-occultic group
"Occult" means "hidden". By this definition, the group is occult.
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that claims a direct connection to what they term the 'Undead Gods' who can be contacted in a ritual the Temple calls "communion". The members call themselves "Vampires" and go around "feeding" on people's "lifeforce" by breathing and pretending to be sucking people's energy.
Much like Freemasons use psychodrama to convey morality tales, the Temple of the Vampire uses metaphor to convey ideas (specifically, tools to enable our membership to progress and further the ends of immortality for themselves and others who want it). To this end, the Temple uses a tri-une metaphysics, thus:
The Dayside: Presented in an "as is" fashion, says what it means, and refers to conventionally agreed upon as reality. Cold hard materialism. Tried and tested methods of doing things.
The Nightside: Presented cloaked in metaphor, and includes methods of using one's conscious and subconscious mind more usefully.
The Twilight: The point at which it is recognised that these two are operating within the same set of rules, akin to the dictum that "the difference between science and technology lies in the knowledge of the observer".
Hence, much like Freemasons, yes, the Temple has rituals that rely on psychodrama to inculcate understanding of concepts that are better handled in the first instance by the subconscious than the conscious.
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Mr Styles goes by the nickname "Linguascelesta" on the Temple's message board and holds the title of "Adept" (it's the highest degree possible, apprently).
This is true.
Quote:
The Temple's administrator, a fellow called George C. Smith (with a very interesting occult background in the Church of Satan and Temple of Set) asks members to sign up to cryonics but ensures that their membership in the Temple remains a secret for fear of damaging the reputation of organisations like CI, Alcor and ImmInst.
The Temple of the Vampire does indeed insist that its membership refrain from allowing such organisations to be publicly associated with us, on pain of Excommunication. This is to protect the image of those organisations. For this reason, I was not at liberty to divulge my Temple membership here.
As we are a secret society, I cannot confirm or deny the membership of anybody in the Temple without permission. As such, I cannot comment on the George C. Smith mentioned. I can advise that the Temple's administration team consists of a lot more than one person, as this comment would otherwise suggest.
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Now, what exactly is the agenda of this Temple? Apparently, world domination, as they claim. Hahaha. What a joke.
The Temple's mission is actually to help those who wish to live forever, to do so.
Quote:
Isn't in embarrassing to have a person who is gullible enough to fall for all this nonsense in the board of directors?
There is no con, no scam, nothing for which to fall. A common-sense organisation. Regards to the Temple's Nightside claims, we actively tell our members to not believe them.
Quote:
Don't believe me? Look up the name "Linguascelesta" on Google and the results will be very, very interesting.
Until he put a lot of things on the internet about me, Googling "Linguascelesta" would produce my (non-identifying) profile on the Temple's website, my (non-identifying) profile on the Church of Satan website, my personal site which only links to the above organisations and comments on a few, very non-identifying pieces of information, and a (non-identifying) online chess account.
Now, he has filled the web with comments about me and those will appear on Google.
He created the PR mess that he claims to want to help CI avoid. If he really meant this, he would have emailed quietly about this and not posted publicly for all to see.
Quote:
Organisations like the Cryonics Institute and ImmInst can't have people like these on board. That's my opinion, at least
And yet we make up a large portion of CI and Immortality Institute membership. We can't be excised. I could be excised (frankly, I'd resign if I thought it would help - like I said, we're in this for your benefit) but it wouldn't help. The PR issue is still there, and the last thing you want is a huge witch-hunt tearing apart the immortalist demographic globally.
What this poster wants is for the movement to cause damage to itself by in-fighting. He has his issues with us, and as a result, he wants to hurt us. He knows he can't hurt us directly; many have tried and failed. So instead he is trying to damage the thing that we most care about, that cannot defend itself, and that he knows we will do anything (short of breaking the law) to protect.
Understand that we have kept our involvement with this field secret successfully for decades, despite always having been in the thick of it.
If we have hidden things from you, it has been for your protection. We knew all along that our imagery would not be good to associate with shiny scientific endeavours, for PR reasons. So although we have always poured our resources into such, we never let you know, lest the media find out, and the public come marching up the hill with pitchforks.
Why then did we involve ourselves in this field? Well, almost nobody else was doing it and the field needed useful hands on deck. Bear in mind that we were at this long before you were. We have been the researchers, the businessmen, the doctors, the lawyers, the artists, the engineers, the PR guys, etc working behind the scenes to make sure the wheels kept turning.
We have been the coordinated sudden mass efforts that periodically appear from nowhere to swamp something with support and disappear as quickly afterwards when the goal is accomplished.
We have been the people who will never say die.
We are accused, by unfriendly outside observers, of being élitist. It is because we have always been the most active core of this movement, and we know it.
And yet, despite our best efforts, one traitor has caused all this work (ours and yours) to be threatened by association with the driving force that has allowed the movement to get where it is. It was mentioned to me by a member of Leadership at ImmInst that ImmInst has worked hard to get rid of mysticism and snake-oil type rubbish, and has finally succeeded all so recently in having messageboard facilities clear of that kind of thing.
To that I respond here: You're welcome.
You see, because we have always been very aware of the importance of image, we have worked harder than anyone to make this movement as shiny, scientific, and "normal" as possible.
Recently I met with a large number of cryonicists at a conference. There were a fair number of those present who looked a bit like they might be interested in the occult, or Satanism, or similar "odd" things. And do you know what? None of the people who most seemed that way, were actually us. *We* were the normal-looking ones. We look more normal than the normal people! We know that we need to look normal!
It was the people who were not "us" that didn't know there was something they needed to hide, and thus went about dressing oddly and making comments that drove us crazy because we were far more image conscious.
Postscript: You may wonder about my personal qualities if I am telling you the above things about the Temple of the Vampire if I am sworn to secrecy, not to speak of the Temple without permission. To address this potentially apparent incongruence, I will mention that I have been authorised to represent the Temple in this fashion.
In other news, I spoke with the CoS High Priestess, expressing this situation from a CoS perspective (bearing in mind that I and the other compromised people are CoS members, and that ******* is also an ex-CoS member).
She expressed supportiveness and ask me for clarification regarding what had caused him to turn on CoS members like this, and I explained his reasoning to the best of my understanding, framing things in CoS terms as much as possible.
________________________________________________________________________
I have additionally spoken with Ben Best regarding the situation, operating on the assumption that if ******* is contacting everyone and their cat about this, it will also reach CI's ears. As, up until this point, Ben was the only person remotely suspicious of me, when the rumour reached him it would answer a lot of questions he had, so it was better if he had the facts from me first.
I should mention that I did get permission from Nemo who in turn got permission from Senior Management regarding this.
I filled Ben in on the past couple of decades of secrets that he has missed, and brainstormed with him regarding fixes for this situation.
He took it very well and reacted very reasonably, by the way.
He shares my suspicion that Andy Zawacki will not take it at all well or react very reasonably.
He will endeavour to intercept the CI email, which he checks while Andy is away (as he currently is for a few days), in the hopes of deleting anything from ******* before Andy sees it. It is understood however that Andy might still read it first on his Blackberry.
He thinks that it is possible that Andy will react suddenly with a public disavowal of any such associations, but more likely that he will take it to the CI Board of Directors for them to tackle.
The CI Board of Directors meets only once every few months, but will meet this Sunday.
If Andy hears of this in time to take it to the Directors before Sunday, and it is raised in the meeting, Ben will argue the case for watching and waiting at least a little bit before taking any action. This will mean no action will be taken before the next Board meeting, a few months away. This will give us breathing room.
Ben thinks it would be a good idea if, to help matters more in future, we could get someone on the Board of Directors in the next election. The deadline for becoming a candidate is August the 7th, 2010, but he advises to announce intention as early as possible to be listed in Long Life magazine.
Ben thinks that despite this current PR situation, I'd stand a good chance of being elected, given my reputation and what I have already done in the field.
Ben thinks it would not look suspicious, and advises that my recent election to the ImmInst Board of Directors did not look at all suspicious, and rather than acting against me, would stand in my favour.
Ben would support my candidacy.
I and administration previously discussed putting Faelyn into the Board of Directors, but since Ben thinks it wouldn't look suspicious to have me in, and Faelyn is now "outed" by ******* as well, and I have a known and reputable background in cryonics, I would be the less suspicious and more useful candidate.
Regards to the public ramifications of me being "outed" as a Satanist (which is the aspect most people seem to be focussing on, rather than my Temple involvement as intended by *******), it is deemed likely that most people within our field would be able to quickly recognise what the CoS is and isn't (after all, our field is broadly filled with intelligent people with enquiring minds who like reading, and it's clear from the ImmInst reaction that this process is pretty quick to emerge), and just think me a more radical atheist than they previously thought me.
Which reminds me, I have expressed a materialistic standpoint to Ben regarding the Temple. This came up as he mused that *******'s stated beef with the Temple seems to be twofold:
1) The Temple is a financial scam
2) We are bunch of silly gullible believers
To the former, he could readily see from publicly available evidence that we basically charge money for products and services, which is something a lot of organisations do.
To the latter, he asked "Well, do you believe that you have a direct line of Communication to some Undead Gods?"
To this I replied with an explanation of the Temple's use of metaphor, the Temple's disclaimer, the Temple's motto, etc, and expressed a sadness that occasionally members don't action these words.
I framed everything in the Dayside, and presented the Nightside as a metaphor, drawing a similarity to how Freemasons use psychodrama to convey morality lessons etc.
I explained how the Temple doesn't exist to get money from its members, and that what it actually wants from its members is work, and that to achieve this it gives its members tools that will help them to get ahead in the world and better contribute to our common goals.
Regarding discretion, Ben said "Don't worry, I'm carrying more secrets than the Titanic, I can handle one more".
___________________________________________________________________________
One more thing:
By the wonders of mass mailing, I have been invited to attend a cryonics talk in London on May the 16th. I'm glad I was invited, as I think it will be a good talk, because I will be the speaker.
The title I have been given on which to speak is "Cryonics UK - One Year On - An update from David Styles".
I will report, as the name suggests, what (considerable!) progress has been made in the UK in terms of cryonics in the year I have been organising it.
As ******* has been affiliated with the UK Transhumanist Association (whom I will be addressing at a university in London), he will have been invited too. He may turn up to heckle me.
If he does, I will endeavour to brush off comments or questions regarding my affiliations dismissively. If he asks it in an "any questions" section, I will sigh and amend to "any relevantquestions?".
If he persists, and I am really backed into a corner, the plan is as follows:
******* will likely address the two things he sees as wrong with the Temple, money and gullibility.
If he brings up money, I will advise that if he wants to discuss secret society membership fees, he should probably check out the local Masonic lodge (granted, I know the Freemasons rejected him some time ago, but the audience won't know that).
If he brings up gullibility, I will turn it on him, playing the materialist card.
I will look at him like he is a moron, and respond to anything Nightside he mentions in the following manner:
[if, for example, he brings up the Apocalpyse, as he did in his email to Alan Sinclair"]
"So, let me get this straight, you're asking about the point in the future where powerful, super-intelligent entities reorganise governance of the world, and you don't realise this is talking about the Technological Singularity? Can you really not understand a such a simple metaphor? If I told you that you were barking up the wrong tree, would you look up, and say 'I can't see any tree, what are you talking about?' - I'm really having difficulty seeing what you're failing to understand here"
[if, for example, he brings up Undead Gods]
"Ok, you're asking about powerful super-intelligent beings who can go from one body to another or operate without being embodied? Mind uploading, much? This really should be obvious to anyone with a passing interest in Transhumanism - I'm not sure what you're missing" (and look at him like I think he's missing a braincell or two)
[if on the other hand he tries to argue, as he did at ImmInst, that he is doing this for the good of the PR of cryonics etc, outing the Temple's secrets so it can be excised like a cancer from the movement, this manner of response suggested by Nemo]
"Let me get this straight. You acknowledge that being associated with such organisations might look bad for cryonics groups, and thus, to protect them, you are linking the two as publicly as possible? Are you trying to trying to bring down cryonics? Is that what you're here for?"
Of course it is what he's there for, but he will be loathe to admit that.[/quote]
richiekgb"From what I can gather the Temple promises to sell its students the secret of immortality - the answer is cryonics.
It starts with buying the book and ring - then they are encouraged to buy monthly membership.
There are two sides to thier beliefs - "The Dayside Vampire is a practising transhumanist - we seize the use of emerging technologies to achieve the Posthuman Condition of Homo Excelsior - the attainment of physical immortality, enhanced intelligence and practical Godhood" "the Nightside Vampire strives to more fully embrace the Vampiric nature by developing the many powers of the a vampire to include shape shifting, flying, mesmeric power and Communion with the Undead Gods"
To become a Adept you must show mastery over the both night and day - proof of this is being able to afford a cryonics contract and getting one.
"by developing the opposing Dayside and Nightside perspectives, The vampire induces a tension between the worlds of truth and fantasy.
The result is a growing capacity to cause change in the material world such that dreams of the night leave footprints in the day.
This we call the twilight"
They claim to be athiest's but their lit contains so much mumbo-jumbo its like some kind of occultic techno religion - one of the core elements is that "some technologies are indistiguishable from magick" - More Arthur C Clarke bashing! :)
George C Smith is the guy who wrote all this stuff I think and David Styles is his "prodigy" who is a master of manipulation and has managed to get his fingers in quite a few pies.
I believe that Styles pies include Eucrio, Cryonics UK, Cryonics institute, Alcor Portugal, Suspended Animation inc and possibly Saul Kent. I think he and other members of this "secret
club" have infiltrated a lot of non-profits to gain power and influence. Apparently the "undead gods" are a group of "adepts" who use thier influential positions to manuvoure organisations
in the "temples interests". There is something about apocalypse beliefs as well and that they will be the chosen to deal with the chaos of the Technological Singularity.
Here G. has put up info about another thing he did called "the Anger Cure" - [sites.google.com]
Note: George C. Smith, M.A., is a Washington state Certified Mental Health Counselor (C.M.H.C.) in private practice for over 25 years.
Are mental Health Counselors supposed to run loads of dodgy self help organisations and groom young people in cults?
Is this another "fake qualifications "claim to make money?"
Stoic"To become a Adept you must show mastery over the both night and day - proof of this is being able to afford a cryonics contract and getting one.'
There must be a tie-in here with the cryonics companies giving some kind of kick-back, an affiliate payment, (a minimum 50% and upward for snagging a recruit in the IM circle-jerk circles) for introducing a new punter to the pay-until-you-drop scheme. Perhaps this is what Styles has negotiated with the bigger 'shiny, scientific' cryonics companies.
Or does the TOV/cryonics connection go further back--date from pre-Styles invovlement?"
The Anticult"So since there appears to be a bizarre fringe sect of "vampires" running around, someone in the vampire food chain got the idea to use manipulative tactics to sell cryonics contracts. They put pressure on them, and use leverage, by telling them to buy the cryonics contract, or you get kicked out of the vampire cult.
Same tactic many sects use.
So the guy running the cryonics sham, collects the monthly cryonics fee, and would get a fat commission from the guy who draws up the cryonics contracts.
As has been said before, its surprising that sects like Raelians, and others, have not cashed in on this themselves. Force their own members to buy a $200,000 cryonics contract, or get kicked out of the sect.
They probably have something else going on, that is easier to mange, with less complications.
But its the STANDARD cryonics method. Use deceptive and manipulative SALES and upselling techniques, to get people to sign contract they cannot get out of. Like an irrevocable trust.
But on top of this, who would want self-declared "vampires" in Europe to be handling human corpses for alleged cryonics?
Who wants a self-declared "vampire" cult to be the one to collect their dead body, and then drain the blood out of it, in the fake cryonics ambulance?
They want self-declared "vampires" to be responsible for the decapitation of human corpses for a cryonics head-freezing?
Does any sane cryonics believer, want self-described European vampires in a bizarre sect, to be the ones handling and mutilating their corpse at death?
What is really going on with this?"
richiekgb"Yeah Ellen Clarke is his wife they are both really young David is about 25 and Ellen is 21 i think if the mail article is correct.
So they were obviously "groomed" by George C smith from a young age - David has been in the vampire cult for about 5-6 years maybe longer - so there is something quite troubling about George Smith targeting kids in their late teens. Though it does tie in with Rudi Hoffmans remarks about Cryoncists getting younger people involved to manage trust's and suspensions for the earlier generations of cryoncists on the depressed metabolism website: [www.depressedmetabolism.com]
The temple started in 1989 to answer stoics earlier question.
The "Owner" of Eucrio is apparently this person: Nuno R.B. Martins - Seems hes a Alcor Member and set up Alcor Portugal [alcorportugal.com] so its likley he has more than a casual link to other cryonics organisations as well, Hes also another Transhumanist and even "graduated" from the singularity university. [www.popsci.com] + [singularityu.org]
From: [www.neuronanorobots.com]
"Nuno R. B. Martins - Nuno is a PhD student focused on developing the promising technologies for human (healthy) life-extension. He is currently developing a new medical technology, called neuronanorobotics, to preserve human brain information. His PhD thesis is titled: “neuronanorobotics: a proposed medical technology to preserve human brain information”.
Nuno's major goal is the achievement of radical life-extension. His current goal is to make life-extending medical nanorobotics technologies happen as fast as possible.
Also: [crionica.org]"
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