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Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]  |  Religion, Spirituality, & Philosophy  |  Other Religious, Spiritual, & Philosophical Paradigms (Moderators: Merticus, SoulSplat, Eclecta, Maloryn, Zero)  |  I Have A Question For You All 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Soulshroude
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 02:44:47 am »

~RKCoon~ it is clear to me that you have an anger toward religion in general.  But what I have not seen is a tolerance from you regarding religion in general.  It takes a better person to remain tolerant then to add intolerance to what seems already to be a very discouraging conclusion.  Mind if we step outside the box for a second rather then concentrating on other peoples problems and actually think for a moment as to why society is the way it is?  Again, politics in a nutshell.  It does no good to add fuel to the fire that has been burning for centuries.  Let the masses do what they feel they need to do.  Just "mind the gap..."
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paindancer
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 10:33:40 am »

OP...

Hm... they are certainly using a lot of social pressure on you.  Like it or not, you may want to really look at some 'cult warning indicators' out there, just to know how many issues you may be dealing with.

My strongest issue is this:

You seem to have it in your head that this church is a requirement for eternal life.   Even christian myths agrees, this is a boon from God, and neither man nor man's creations has the power to grant this.

may want to keep that in mind regarding your decision.
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Paindancer
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2010, 11:46:12 am »

Lady of Pales:

Your first step would to be stop reading anything RKCoon says about Christianity. He doesn't know anything and he's a troll.

Secondly:

I'm a Christian, flat out and straight up. I am unapologetic about this fact and won't hide it. As far as what your situation is, insomuch as what you have said, I would say that the church you were attending is not the place for you. I would not bother asking the Deacon to "save me" if I didn't feel I had done anything wrong. If you do not believe that you have "sinned" greviously, and don't believe that your "eternal life" is at risk... then don't bother.

If you want to remain Christian, I would highly suggest you read the New Oxford Standard Revised bible because it is the one that is the most accurately translated (I can explain this to you later if you want to know more about why) and follow the Ten Commandments. However, even that is just advice. What you do with your life and what your relationship is with God is between you and him, no one else. That's just how the reality of it is. Your relationship with God is just that, your relationship.

Who is saved and who isn't is not up to the church. They put an awful lot of weight on you doing what they say in order to be "saved". Frankly, the only person that can "save" you is God and so I'd skip the questionable middleman and go straight to big daddy, myself. That's what I've done and I don't feel conflicted.

I hope this helps you somehow, and if you want to talk further I'd be happy to.
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Kim
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2010, 12:17:11 pm »

I don't know anything else about your situation besides what you posted in this discussion. But you have a very tough choice. You've found your true self but your family doesn't accept what you do. To be honest, I've tried living with my family and being who they want me to be. It was weird, on the outside I was happy but deep inside I didn't feel happy and I didn't feel right. I loved the company of my family but I still had to live true to myself. Long story short I ended up living almost like a double life until finally I moved across the country from them. I do miss their company and all but I'm happy now because I'm living how I want to, how I feel is right for me. I got lucky and some of my family was understanding so I talk to them once a week over the phone, but other family members have just about disowned me.

If you 'repent' then you'll probably find some comfort and acceptance with your family and people in the church. If your parents are really into their religion then they'll forgive you if you repent because you've repented, that means nothing in the past can be held against you. But things will probably go back to how they were before. You being depressed. You might be able to find constant happiness if you repent.

If you choose to not repent and to live your life how you feel then you'll have a much greater chance of being truely happy. One thing that you might be able to do is explain it to your parents, tell them that you're not murdering anyone, you're not doing anything illegal and that you feel like you're being yourself and that you're happy. Tell them that if they really love you then they'll be happy for you. But then that can always backfire with them just getting mad.

It's completely your decision, but this situation is kind of like a double edged sword. Sorry, I hope this helped a bit Sad  I hope that you find lots of happiness in whichever decision you make.
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RKCoon
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 12:24:15 pm »

SoulShroude - I am, first and foremost, a Canadian. By that definition, I do respect everyone's right to worship whatever they want, however, I also have the right to use words - and words alone - to state what I think, what I feel regarding religion. I will state my case, I will argue till cows give chocolate milk, but so long as they do not force their beliefs on me, I will not force my beliefs on them. IF they feel that me using words alone is force in and of itself, that is THEIR problem, not mine, in their being insecure of what they believe. Perhaps they arent as convinced in what they believe as they advertise?

PD - I hate admitting this, but you actually got it right regarding the cults. As far as eternal life? I will say so far humanity hasnt figured that part out yet; either way it has better things to worry about.

Sentinel -- Sorry, but a Christian telling me I am a troll when I have used facts, logic and rationality to point out the flaws in faith, and you (and others) as christians have done NOTHING but say 'oh its faith you have to take it on faith and dont count us with our religious siblings that want to persecute those that we dont like' ultimately proves who the trolls are. As the saying goes, "Put up or shut up" -- well, I put up, now its your turn. Your attempts to point to different versions of the bible when ALL are supposed to be "the word of god" demonstrates how ALL of it is the word of man, not any god -- and all as equally flawed as man is. (Should I point out the logic argument that if god was perfect, he would be technically unable to create imperfection (or he himself would instantly become imperfect based on what he creates), and therefore, if god created us, we should be as 'perfect' as he? Or is the christian idea of perfect to be petty, cruel, bloodthirsty, savage, and ultimately, evil? I ask you.)  Further, regarding who is "saved" -- That is the same line, the same load of crap, (IMHO) that has brought people in and kept them trapped in the abusive relationship that is religion; that is christianity and other faiths.  "Oh believe it because our singular book - comprised of writings of cave dwellers - said so". Yeano.  -1 for the fail.

Lady of Pales -- I would ask you, respectfully, to take a step back, and re read what has all been said here. Not just my posts, but everyones'. You have those generally not a part of religion (specifically of christianity) suggesting to watch yourself and take a step back from ALL of it, and only those of some forms of faith suggesting staying a part of the faith, but looking for another branch of the same faith.   Think about that for a few moments. Why would it be that those not a part of it suggest backing off, while those a part of it suggest staying in it?
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sphynxcatvp
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 04:43:37 pm »

Quote from: LadyOfPales
Would you give up anything in your life in pursuit of "eternal life" if you knew what was the "Truth"?
When I was 13, my parents guilt tripped me into being baptized into a faith...I was very young, but I could comprehend well as I do today /nothing about me has changed farther than 'growing up' and getting little smarter/ I was not boding well in my awakening, and on top of that I was struggling to support a burden of myself caused by the church. The result was almost like a burned fuse in my brain, and I became depressed for the years to come- That seems more apparent before- it was two or three years ago when I finally found a donor, and I felt the depression of not feeding finally lift.

If they guilt trip you into not feeding are you going to go along with that? And be depressed all over again?

Quote from: LadyOfPales
I was forced to leave my house after a dispute about a month ago and live with my boyfriend with whom I am currently residing....But what I came to realize, was that the Deacon isn't really the one who decides if I stay or go /unless I make more obvious wrong choices to his answers e.g. saying I don't want to come back/ It's myself who decides of course. The Deacon wants me to stay, so he'd say whatever he can in his power to get me to stay...My mom found my personal documentaries while I was out. That's right. Everyone has to know my fucking dilemma, top to fucking bottom. Being sanguine isn't going to fly...I don't seriously think I'll ever be treated the same by my family again. The Deacon told me to repent, change little by little, and you should be fine here.

So basically, they're saying you're only accepted as a churchmember if you change to meet THEIR expectations. Is that what you really want?

Quote from: LadyOfPales
What would you do in my situation, assuming that everything I knew and experienced was what everyone is searching for, /eternal life and the hope to be saved/?

I am the way the I am. I've had religion shoved on me while I was growing up, by older relatives who - while well-meaning, I'm sure - never accepted the fact that I just never thought the same way they did, and never understood that the more they tried to force religion on me, the less I wanted any part of it. I'd get lectures on how I must be a satanist because I wanted no part of going to church. Pffft.

Not everyone is searching for the religious concept of "eternal life" and "being saved" (I have to ask, "being saved" from what?)

What you see now as being accepting after you "change, little by little" will eventually turn out to be a lot of changes. And if that includes denying your nature, you'll end up being miserable later, even if you don't think so now.

I suppose the important question you really should answer for yourself is...

Which means more to you? Being potentially miserable for the rest of your life here, in exchange for some nebulous faith-based concept of an afterlife? Or being potentially happier for the rest of your life and fully accepting of your nature?

(I'm not especially concerned with the afterlife - and I'm not particularly religious - but I figure if there's a $diety who's unhappy with the way I'm doing things and wants me to change, that would have been made clear to me a long time ago.)
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RKCoon
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 07:02:10 pm »

Thats a good post, I admit.
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LadyOfPales
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ITS A SPY


« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2010, 08:12:04 pm »

Quote from: LadyOfPales
Would you give up anything in your life in pursuit of "eternal life" if you knew what was the "Truth"?
When I was 13, my parents guilt tripped me into being baptized into a faith...I was very young, but I could comprehend well as I do today /nothing about me has changed farther than 'growing up' and getting little smarter/ I was not boding well in my awakening, and on top of that I was struggling to support a burden of myself caused by the church. The result was almost like a burned fuse in my brain, and I became depressed for the years to come- That seems more apparent before- it was two or three years ago when I finally found a donor, and I felt the depression of not feeding finally lift.

If they guilt trip you into not feeding are you going to go along with that? And be depressed all over again?

>>> Well over all of the talks I've had with my parents about this, they don't deny about what they did and know that it was wrong.

Quote from: LadyOfPales
I was forced to leave my house after a dispute about a month ago and live with my boyfriend with whom I am currently residing....But what I came to realize, was that the Deacon isn't really the one who decides if I stay or go /unless I make more obvious wrong choices to his answers e.g. saying I don't want to come back/ It's myself who decides of course. The Deacon wants me to stay, so he'd say whatever he can in his power to get me to stay...My mom found my personal documentaries while I was out. That's right. Everyone has to know my fucking dilemma, top to fucking bottom. Being sanguine isn't going to fly...I don't seriously think I'll ever be treated the same by my family again. The Deacon told me to repent, change little by little, and you should be fine here.

So basically, they're saying you're only accepted as a churchmember if you change to meet THEIR expectations. Is that what you really want?

>>> Thats what I felt. But I realize that i'm loved there really no matter what, just the way it should be. Everyone is loved there no matter what.
I forgot to mention it but I can recall a bit of my conversation.... he said that now since I am an adult, I should take things into my own hands. He says that if I am going now only out of guilt that I think my family wants me to go, I am not serving the way I should. I should go because I should seek what I want from it, not because of what my family thinks. From now on I will go because I promised myself I would do the best I can because no matter how awfully hard its been made for me to attend, those obstacles were put there to see that I should do better to overcome them, if I truly want to.

Quote from: LadyOfPales
What would you do in my situation, assuming that everything I knew and experienced was what everyone is searching for, /eternal life and the hope to be saved/?

I am the way the I am. I've had religion shoved on me while I was growing up, by older relatives who - while well-meaning, I'm sure - never accepted the fact that I just never thought the same way they did, and never understood that the more they tried to force religion on me, the less I wanted any part of it. I'd get lectures on how I must be a satanist because I wanted no part of going to church. Pffft.

Not everyone is searching for the religious concept of "eternal life" and "being saved" (I have to ask, "being saved" from what?)

What you see now as being accepting after you "change, little by little" will eventually turn out to be a lot of changes. And if that includes denying your nature, you'll end up being miserable later, even if you don't think so now.

I suppose the important question you really should answer for yourself is...

Which means more to you? Being potentially miserable for the rest of your life here, in exchange for some nebulous faith-based concept of an afterlife? Or being potentially happier for the rest of your life and fully accepting of your nature?

(I'm not especially concerned with the afterlife - and I'm not particularly religious - but I figure if there's a $diety who's unhappy with the way I'm doing things and wants me to change, that would have been made clear to me a long time ago.)


I have never been afraid of death. I am stupid to have taken such a thing so lightly, as no one ever should, ever in my life. With the experiences I have had, I have become a different kind of person. I look through two different eyes and walk with two different legs. Being around other people makes me feel so alien, I can't stand it. But I do nonetheless. I see death through a scope now, not as a clouded glass. Everyone looks like another 'body' to me. Another person who just ends up dead the next day. In that perspective, what do you think I should feel?
I now do fear death, for my conscience, for the sake of my spirit. Will I disappear forever? Have you ever thought so hard about it?
Even if I am afraid, I still live to enjoy every day and moment so that if I do come to die, I won't feel like I lived wastefully.
     I don't live for a society, I don't have to treat them the way they want to be treated, or be kind, or love anyone. People are sometimes really nothing more than bodies. But I know what the right thing is,  so sometimes I have to be put aside for a little while.
I live in a world of guilt just because I have to hurt someone for my own selfish reason. I might not feel ashamed to make a sacrifice just this once for someone else.
Things are feeling better now, but for the future, who knows.
     ps, I don't really need to know what you think about religion, probably because I don't care, or maybe because it just seems the same as everyone else I've ever met thinks about it /with an exception of the 'few'/. We don't share alike minds and that's ok.


in other words,
                                      YOU PEOPLE DISSAPONT ME AND I AM DON WITH THIS THRAAD
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paindancer
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2010, 08:37:59 pm »

okaaay...

*mental note, next time shove sunshine up pales ass*

You asked, and you got some of the best responses I have seen on ava to date.  I doubt very much its the responses here you are disappointed with, but rather yourself for varying reasons.  Mental conditioning is pretty tough to break.  I personally feel sorry that you carry so mush shame and guilt.. simply for living, it seems.  I hope you can grow out of it someday.

Best of luck to you.

BTW, its spelled 'disappoint', 'done' and 'thread'.  Angry closing statements work a lot better when spelled correctly.
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Paindancer
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RKCoon
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2010, 09:19:20 pm »

Sadly, it is a VERY common conditioning I see from people of faith that find their 'flock', shall we say, suddenly set against them, simply for being themselves.

Pales - I realize this may not register, but from what you have posted, you have NOTHING to feel guilty for. That is what the religion does to people that try to stray, try to find themselves - it makes them feel guilty for daring to question, daring to be different from what the religion demands.

I could come at this another way, a modification of what Ive heard some xtian/catholic vamps use to justify the conflict they feel between themselves and their faiths -- if one were to assume and accept for the moment that 'god is in control' and 'god put you in the body your in', and what you feel is a direct result of 'god' then, again assuming that line of reasoning, one can say that god made you be as you are, and it is others in error. Only you know how and what you feel, so its up to you to sort it out.
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SoulSplat
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2010, 10:54:08 pm »

                                      YOU PEOPLE DISSAPONT ME AND I AM DON WITH THIS THRAAD

Should I attempt to respond to this or are you really giving up?
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sphynxcatvp
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2010, 03:26:41 am »

Quote from: LadyOfPales
YOU PEOPLE DISSAPONT ME AND I AM DON WITH THIS THRAAD

Tsk tsk. If you don't want the answers, don't ask the question. Smiley

(That said, I wasn't trying to be mean - just get you to think about the ramifications of your choice. If you're ok with that, AND have thought about it, that's cool. Whatever floats yer boat.)
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Decline
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2010, 04:44:58 am »

.
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Soulshroude
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2010, 06:22:26 am »

With all this conversation regarding the trials of life and its destinations therof ie, religion; politics, etc.  We need to also remember that certain members and other individuals not aware or having responded to this thread, may be adolenscent still.  From the youngest ages to the old person in their weary state.  Some of these individuals have not had very pleasant lifes experiances involving any of the destinations.

This young adult obviously has either some or has gone through some harships in their time, and thus wanted some opinions or advice.  But, we also need to remember that all opinions or advice given whether good or bad, should be taken into credibiity if it is based on a personal experiance from what one has learned from their own accounts of the same.

In other words:  It is alright to feel butt hurt about the opinions or advice from others, but don't lash out on the crowd or audience just because they posted something that you did not want to either read or admit to what was said that was right, or hit the nail on the perverbial head.  Or if it was completely wrong, just post that it was.

Food for thought.
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"Those of whom hath commited a fault, shall be given the chance to redeem themselves." ~Faust~

"To labor under a dilusion of grandeur will, as time allows.. corrupt." ~Soulshroude~
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