<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>>
<Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community
<Merticus> Public Meeting - April 25, 2009
<Merticus> Discussion Agenda:
<Merticus> I. Meeting Information
<Merticus> Welcome to the second public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2009. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
<Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
<Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
<Merticus> II. Background & Introduction
<Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006.
<Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to
<Merticus> establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
<Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
<Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
<Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at:
http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
<Merticus> III. Discussion
<Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question.
<Merticus> All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
<Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions:
<Merticus> a. Information Continuity - A Four-Part Question:
(1) Discuss the pros and cons of presenting more uniform information to those inquiring about vampirism from outside of the community.
<Merticus> (2) What specific steps could be taken to improve the quality of information provided to those within the vampire community? (3) What role, if any, do we have as a network or on an individual level to ensure credible and responsible information is shared - how are those "standards" determined?
<Merticus> (4) Should we attempt a dialogue with current or former law enforcement officials who hold seminars or teach classes on the dangers of vampirism and the vampire subculture? <Akasha> (1) The good thing would be that the community would be more informed and have more 'somewhat' stable information (if everyone could agree on what was to be presented.
<Akasha> The bad is that there will be those who would contest it.
<Akasha> (2) The only real steps to take would be to get everyone to agree on what should be presented and how it is to be defined ... and then, setting up a database for people to gather the info from.
<Akasha> (3) Since there are many sites, everyone would need to have the same information or links leading back to the database previously mentioned.
<Akasha> (4) I feel that keeping law enforcement in the loop is a good idea. Keeping them informed of people like Jonathon Sharkey and the like would be good and would help us keep the nutjobs on somewhat of a leash (if law enforcement is aware of them, they'll watch them closer).
<Akasha> As for seminars, that might be a good idea, but then again, it could breed more fear, disdain and hate.
<RavenHarte> a. (1) I think that having the larger websites containing similar information would make it harder for people to dissect the vampire community, turning it in on itself as that seems to do, because it would be a "unifying" idea - something that says we are all part of the same community and here's how.
<RavenHarte> HOWEVER because every person, house, coven etc is experiencing vampirism their own way, expresses the lifestyle portion differently, there always has to be room for those websites to speak their opinions from their perspective as well.
<RavenHarte> (2) I think that the VVC members would need to all agree what to put on their own sites and boards first, which are the larger more respected points of entry into the community anyway. When all the large sites and communities agree it will help some of the lesser known understand its in their best interest to do better with the material they present.
<RavenHarte> Then I think perhaps you just need a few people from the larger websites to troll around a bit and make suggestions to websites who have erroneous info, or info which is clearly house or person specific but speaks in a way as to imply their statement is true for all. Many webmasters will take help where they can get it. No one wants to look like the internet idiot of the community.
<RavenHarte> (3) The only role the VVC can take really is the mentoring of those who request it or accept it willingly. It is clearly broadcasted that we do not want to be the police of the VC, and that we are not trying to be some type of governing body, so in that capacity what say do we have? All we can do is what we have been doing, making sure WE all are in line with our thinking and goals, and WE do our best for the public and hope we can lead by example if not in truth.
<RavenHarte> (4) I think its a good idea to establish contacts and connects, but the people that are going to be the most well-received by the police are those who are already published and are perceived as having some type of "expert opinion" I hate to say - so Michelle Belanger, Joseph Laycock, etc.
<RavenHarte> Even then it would have to be a workshop/lecture on the occult in total, Pagan, Satanist, Vampire - the entire gambit - because seriously they are often too busy to attend criminal workshops they NEED, like those on sexual assault and domestic violence, so something on just the vampire community is not going to be high on the list.
<ShadowMind> (1) Pro: The information that the outside community would be getting would be coming from the vampire community itself and not through a third or more distant party. The vampire community could regulate the information level that the outside community receives. We allow the outside world a view into the community. Fear and disbelief are drivers of the un-acceptance of this subculture and an unobstructed view of the realities of it may help alleviate the issue.
<ShadowMind> Con: The fact that we are talking uniform? Who decides what is uniform and is that even possible considering the diverse nature of vampires within the community? If we regulate the level of information, that smacks of governing bodies and I do not believe we, as a community are capable of that nor desire it. How do we decide what to release, who releases that information, who gets it?
<ShadowMind> (2) VVC does a good job of being a central location for discussions of issues related to the vampire community. Also, having the meeting notes posted on many other forums provides additional locations.
<ShadowMind> Quality of information is a very subjective phrase. Quality is often linked with the respect of those who are providing that information. Thus, one method of improvement is to ensure that those providing the information are known and respected, not necessarily across all areas of the community, but at least in many segments. In addition, I have found that producing written works (not necessarily published work) that are vetted and accepted by the community also aids in achieving a level of respect.
<ShadowMind> (3) Much of my experience and opinion on this matter stems more from an individual level. From my perspective, a great deal of the accepted background, practice, and life as a vampire is predominantly subjective. However, that subjectivity is experienced, often, by a large number of practitioners.
<ShadowMind> I believe that to achieve credible and responsible levels of information on a network level, it will begin at an individual level of credible practice. Before I put out any written work, I do my best to do diligent level of research through academia (if broaching folklore, psychological points of view, philosophy, or religion), through surveys or contacts within the community, as well as any other written works within the community itself.
<ShadowMind> Further, I have found that when producing work for community consumption, practical experience is valued. It is difficult to be taken as reliable if you are producing a work but have not experienced that which you write about (at least in many cases if it involves a particular experiential practice).
<ShadowMind> (4) Doing so could create a relationship with official departments that could prove fruitful in the future. If they see us as being responsible, then they are less likely to put us in a negative light. Further, it will, by doing so, enlighten the young members of the community.
<Zakary> (1) The first confounding factor in attempting to present uniform information is 'there is not a uniform concept of the Vampire'. Whilst the act of vampirism is clearly understood by all, be it pranic or sanguine, the greater definition is severely lacking.
<Zakary> As one would be well aware, there are some Houses or groups that conclude they are not 'really vampires' but individuals who have an ideology centered around energy manipulation and Quasi Egyptian theology. Some groups consist of individuals who as teenagers had obviously watched the movie Blade too many times or have just been seduced by a popular teen movement, the dialogue expressed by these types in online forums usually consist of comments like 'yeah I can't go out in the sun either, it gives me headaches'.
<Zakary> If we were to look towards groups like the ToV or Aset Ka for a definition we see the same quality as that which could be found amongst Don Henrie’s female teen fans on his forum. As I have said before, my personal definition canters around control, control of all natural process to achieve immortality. The actual act of Vampirism, be it psychic or sanguine, to the Bennuiene Vampire (Vampires of House Bennu) is of minor significance.
<Zakary> The Vampire as an archetype and Vampiric being as a whole I feel should be the central focus and defining reality. Blood is the ocean that we sail, flesh is the vessel that we sail within, we are voyagers of time, not voyages in time like our mortal counterparts.
<Zakary> (2 & 3) I think the VVC and its membership has a substantive role in providing clear definitions. However, I doubt whether any body has a capacity to control the quality of information. The VVC making itself available for comment to the media, which it appears has been the case, is perhaps all is that can be done.
<Zakary> (4) Hmmm, I'm not sure about that.
<Zero> (1) PRO: Presenting uniform, easy-to-understand information to outside agencies and institutions is one of the most important things any minority group or interest group can do, as far as public relations goes. When the minority group is typically misrepresented in a negative manner, this becomes exponentially more important. What we've got on our hands right now is a combination of a disinformation and hate campaign being championed by people like Dawn Perlmutter and Don Rimer, and confusion in the mass media about what the community is all about.
<Zero> Image confusion is always resolved in one of two ways -- either the public loses interest in conflicting signals (not likely in our case, since fiction vampires are the trend for the foreseeable future), or the loudest signal wins out, which in our case has the potential to be the DISinformation that Perlmutter and Rimer are spewing, because their narrative about the vampire community is simply more coherent than ours.
<Zero> A coherent narrative ("vampires are ordinary people, with some odd metaphysical differences" or "vampires are a dangerous cult," or "vampires are a fun aesthetic subculture" or whatever) is key in any effort to be understood by the media.
<Zero> CON: The culture of the vampire community is generally inclusive and encouraging of intellectual diversity. The biggest problem with presenting uniform information to outside groups is that the community itself reacts negatively any time we sense that nuances are being glossed over and minority viewpoints aren't being represented. Our enthusiasm for inclusion and our value of alternate viewpoints, and the sheer unwillingness to let a problem go until it's been examined from all possible angles could mean that we will never agree on exactly what information will make it into the official muggle briefing, and what will get left out.
<Zero> To me, this is the only problem with presenting uniform information to the greater culture - we bitch about being misrepresented and misunderstood, but we can't really agree on what understanding we ought to be fostering in others. We would have to agree to drop a lot of nuance and present one basic image to the world.
<Zero> We will never be accurately represented in the media -- subtleties of understanding are not their milieu, and are better suited to academia. But we can better control our image, by giving clear and considered signals. This will inevitably leave out nuances of meaning and import which are important to us as a culture, but it will allow us to tell an understandable story to people who aren't interested in the nuances, or who won't be able to grasp subtleties about the community until they're familiar with the basic concepts.
<Zero> (2) As we are a non-hierarchical culture, and we all like our information inter-personal and anecdotal, it's difficult to make an effort at quality-control without instituting a vetting process that's going to look and feel like censorship to community insiders. it's one thing to advocate a uniform information stream from us to the outside, where they don't really care about the subtleties which make up a large part of our personal experiences, but it's quite another to determine a system for deciding what counts as "quality" insider information, especially when everyone's experiences are so different.
<Zero> Our community currently runs on an anarchistic economy of prestige and respect, where the currency is ideas. Some people have big names in this community because of a merit system which values the products of their efforts, but individuals are just as free to disagree as they are to agree with any of our community's loudest voices. I am eager to see how others are answering this question, because at the moment I can't conceive of a way to formalize the ranking of information or information sources without completely alienating the culture which places so high a value on individual viewpoints.
<Zero> (3) Yeah, see above. We determine the standard of quality by endlessly debating the nuances of every opinion and assertion. Typically, the community's quality judgments, on a low-to-high spectrum, range from "bullshit" at the low end to "acceptable as a personal truth for some individuals" as the high end. In other words, we have a culture-wide tendency to reject information as absolutely correct for everyone - the best we can do is providing ideas that we can accept for ourselves, or that we can approve of others accepting for themselves. Any successful effort to ensure credibility will have to factor this into its definition of "credible."
<Zero> (4) No, the Wiccans have had about a zero percent success rate in talking with Don Rimer, and I don't see why we'd have any better luck. Our subculture produces nuanced thinking; he and his colleagues use (and experience) their minds like blunt instruments. I think that people with prejudices that large are actually immune to dialogue.
<Zero> I think we need to actually fight this BS by duplicating their efforts -- by teaching these informational seminars ourselves. This is a very good target for a community project on presenting uniform information. I would actually like to see an individual or a group within the community which trains itself specifically to interact with law enforcement agencies, and which advertises itself for these same seminars that are currently the exclusive domain of charlatans like Rimer.
<Merticus> (1) I think it’s important to clarify what is meant in the way of “uniform information”. If the information is limited to basic material such as overviews of psychic and sanguinarian feeding, safety information, ethics, and structure of the vampire community then I think such could be helpful with ensuring outside parties are exposed to as accurate of information as possible.
<Merticus> There are too many dormant and even current poorly developed web sites with less than credible information. If enough of us are presenting a semi-uniform database then we increase the likelihood of that information being read, cited, etc.
<Merticus> The caveat is that we have to be careful to make sure we don’t dictate that such information is the universal view of all those in the vampire community or to copy material which we do not have permission to use from the author.
<Merticus> (2) Each of us should be cross-linking our web sites, include the VVC RSS feed, VCN twitter feeds, host our own basic FAQ, and all other useful networking sites and applications. This will also lead to more people knowing what is occurring on other sites, projects in the community, and more support of each other’s individual endeavors.
<Merticus> (3) I think that any “standards” should be decided upon on an individual level. I think all of us are capable of deciding what is appropriate for our web sites and what information should be given to outsides sources such as the media. We must be proactive in revising our web sites to reflect this information.
<Merticus> (4) Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC has been presenting information on law enforcement’s view of the vampire community in our PowerPoint presentations for a couple years now. We’re hoping to expand this to include direct interaction with officials who offer such classes and make available to them statistics on beliefs, crime, and other common misconceptions about vampires/vampirism.
<Merticus> I think this is something that should be attempted on a personal level depending on your relationship with or means to deal with law enforcement and not a community-wide endeavor.
<Anshar> First we have to agree about what "uniform information" is. We can all agree that there IS a vampire community, that subject to our various definitions that vampirism exists, but beyond that kind of information or agreeing on safe feeding and donating practices, many of the individual perspectives of the vampire community are vastly different.
<Anshar> We'd have to compile a list of what 'most' of us agree on, and present that information, or present all sides at once, either of which can be relatively daunting.
<Anshar> Many sites exist that provide individual perspectives on vampirism, the question is whether or not we should be one of them. As an assembly of diversity I feel it is more our responsibility to promote dialogue and cooperation, as well as present community events and discussions, rather than educate.
<Deacon_Gray> Good point Anshar.
<Deacon_Gray> And dangerous... but a peer review system has been proposed by both myself and another...
<ThePinkLady> If there was a known and vetted source for information, or several such sources, it would simplify things for newcomers and people who aren't used to searching for information. Trouble is, gather enough of one thing together in one place and people will decry the monopoly, even if that wasn't the original intention.
<Marcus_Noir> As we have repeatedly discussed, there is no singular perspective shared among this Community. We are diverse in depth of the variety of beliefs.
<Mike_Future> Presenting more uniform information would be an important step in getting outside sources to take the community seriously. The downside would probably come from within the vampire community itself. As we know, there is too broad a spectrum of opinion within our community.
<Mike_Future> 2) This is tough because we haven't agreed on a definition of vampire and it will probably be a long time until we can.
<Isealdor> I don’t see there ever being a true consensus beyond some of the very basic information, which is already sort of de-facto uniform around the community...things like "hi, we don’t fly, and we can get sick and die"
<Deacon_Gray> True, but it could also be taken as censorship.
<Deacon_Gray> Peer review to me seems like a great way to accomplish it.
<cynsanity> I think it's important for us to recognize that what we term vampirism isn't necessarily one single condition, and that any "agreement" we can get to when it comes to presenting it to the public is bound to leave some groups of us out.
<AcrophobicPixie> 1: Pros: Harder for shows/reporters to find conflicting/contradictory information. A large number of “famous” vampires giving the same info could make the crazies look even more insane and an invalid source of info.
<AcrophobicPixie> Cons: Could make the crazies stand out, and since they’d have a different view than us, make them appear valid. People in the VC could think that we’re trying to control what people think when it comes to vampirism, and block us or something.
<AcrophobicPixie> (2) I am not sure on this part. I believe that we are doing our best that we can on this front, collecting articles about different aspects of the community, safety issues, etc. and posting them for view.
<AcrophobicPixie> I mean, what more can we do? Take them by the hand and go “Here, read this, and this, not this, and you’ll be totally cool in the VC?” I don’t think that’d fly, and give people a bad impression of the VVC.
<Vyrdolak> Trouble is, we don't have any control over information that is "presented" via websites, books, etc
<Anshar> Vyrdolak: Precisely, which is why it may behoove us to make ourselves scarce on that particular topic. Focusing our efforts on communication and safety will prevent the inevitable complaints and disagreements that would follow.
<Merticus> We would need to present the broadest possible interpretation on some elements - one could apply this to broad level (not the specific intricacies of feeding, etc)
<Merticus> We do however have control over the information presented on our own respective web sites.
<ThePinkLady> @ Merticus: agreed. And would it not be out of line to make a list of what to avoid when it comes to bad websites?
<Vyrdolak> But there is no consensus even on the most basic fundamentals.
<Marcus_Noir> This just occurred to me...
<Marcus_Noir> Are we talking about evolving the role of the VVC beyond an invitation only peer network into a community wide info site?
<ThePinkLady> There's a thread on the VVC forum about people to avoid and a whole back-and-forth about why it wasn't a good idea. Why not make a list of sites to avoid and why?
<Marcus_Noir> At the same time, most of this Community is comprised of adults who should have some common sense, and the ability to determine right from wrong...
<Marcus_Noir> We are not the herders of the Community.
<Sylvere> Like many here, I think we have to be *very* careful of how we define "standard" information. It will be all but impossible to please everyone with a standardized format, no matter how hard we try or how good the final result is.
<Sylvere> That said, I do think we should have a basic answer for outsiders such as law-enforcement or the press so that we can give simple, easy-to-digest responses to some of the most common questions and issues.
<Anshar> Sylvere: agreed, though we must be excruciatingly careful to not include specifics on belief systems and the like.
<Sylvere> Our FAQ is a good beginning to that, but we could conceivably go further and provide more in-depth material for those who need it.
<AcrophobicPixie> I agree with Sylvere.
<Isealdor> I'm a fan of full disclosure of information, from majority "popular" opinions/theories/beliefs to the more minority ones...partially because those minority views have a tendency to evolve into the majority ones as the community progresses and evolves. Yes, it's confusing for outsiders, but more aspects and opinions and thoughts being presented to them rather than a set uniform one gives them a better idea of the big picture of the community,
<Isealdor> rather than thinking that everyone believes whatever happens to be popular or the main thing presented to them.
<Sanguinarius> What about info contributed by us from our websites to the VVC website?
<Anshar> The other option would be to found a wiki so that everyone has an opportunity to put their own insights in. Start it up, and then be laissez faire from then on.
<Anshar> Let it become its own entity so there are not arguments and favoritism.
<Sylvere> Anshar: Agreed, though I think we can safely venture into "no, most vampires don't sacrifice kittens at the new moon" and similar territory.
<Vyrdolak> And then, outsiders have an expectation that is completely different from the attitudes within the community.
<Diaboluslupus> Even if the info doesn't represent 100% of the community, it could be very useful to have some well written boilerplate on vampirism for those of us who get pestered by the media a lot
<Isealdor> I disagree with the law enforcement bit, personally. I don’t think that's going to bring the sort of attention we want, nor is it likely to really help anything as far as the LE side goes
<Sylvere> Law enforcement is at the top of that list, IMO.
<Vyrdolak> Remember the pitfalls of using negatives, Sylvere
<Sylvere> Vyrdolak: NLP is difficult to use in print, but the general gist remains the same.
<Marcus_Noir> We have joked about producing a mini doc "So your child or significant other is a vampire..."
<Marcus_Noir> Now that maybe a good idea.
<Sylvere> Marcus: "When Someone You Love Is A Vampire" perhaps?
<Sanguinarius> Why joke? Why not do it?
<cynsanity> Why do it?
<AcrophobicPixie> What we need to do is keep people from thinking that all of us are psycho, but that we aren't total fluff bunnies with fangs.
<Merticus> Ok let me ask this... if X Media Personality, Y Law Enforcement Officer, and Z College Prof. came to you and asked you to supply information about "vampirism" and the "vampire community" - from what sources would you pull?
<Mike_Future> From my own knowledge.
<Marcus_Noir> There is no singular source.
<Anshar> Merticus: Wikipedia and books to start, then point them at articles on sites like Sangi's.
<AcrophobicPixie> Merticus - personal experience, the cache I've stored on my pc, site, Sangi's site, and others.
<Sanguinarius> Don’t forget SphynxCatVP's.
<Merticus> Wikipedia?? I hope you don't mean the ‘vampire lifestyle’ entry of wikipedia...
<Marcus_Noir> Enough with the wiki's...
<cynsanity> Wiki? Oh, yeah... great resource
<ThePinkLady> Merticus: VEWRS...maybe the V/D Alliance...
<AcrophobicPixie> Also, tell them to read that compilation that Michelle and y'all did awhile back.
<Deacon_Gray> Nods, I actually like AcrophobicPixie on that one.
<Deacon_Gray> I threaten to bite them and send them to Merticus.
<Isealdor> I tend to direct people to a few of the forums, some of the articles, a couple of the books, and the VEWRS/AVEWRS studies.
<Sylvere> Merticus: Sanguinarius.org, Sphynxcat's page, A/VEWRS, the VVC FAQ, and the RVCA's Safer Bloodletting Guide.
<Sylvere> In books, Vampires in Their Own Words, Vampires Today, Psychic Vampire Codex.
<cynsanity> Same as Sylvere here.
<ThePinkLady> The situations I run into involve newbies seeking information to diagnose themselves, like a Web MD for vampires.
<Diaboluslupus> I tend to quote from VEWRS lectures often - generally to re-enforce the "no superpowers" and it’s not a lifestyle issues.
<Merticus> Ok sounds good - all great resources and starting (beginner to advanced) points for outsiders.
<Marcus_Noir> How about a group compiled downloadable PDF right there on the first page of the site?
<Marcus_Noir> Two actually.
<Merticus> Or a resource guide (which we technically already have with the web site listing) - so in effect on some level we're already accomplishing some degree of standardization.
<Merticus> And the cross liking of the news and other information across our sites.
* AcrophobicPixie nods at Merticus
<Sanguinarius> PDFs are good because people can't change them around and add/take out things.
<Marcus_Noir> So how about we, as a group, work on an informative PDF for the public?
<Merticus> @Marcus we don't even have to have one universal PDF, etc. - this doesn't have to me a "universal" project - more a call to make sure resources are linked on each other's web sites.
<Mike_Future> There is something happening in the community which I’d like to note. Many people are looking for us to diagnose them and are putting their health at risk by not seeing a doctor.
<Sanguinarius> I just put up an article earlier that I hope will help counter that.
<ThePinkLady> Or even in general: look at the sources that the resource uses in making its point, look at how the organizers gather the raw data in the case of surveys, check bibliographies and "recommended link" pages, etc.
<Zimmerchild> Mike: I run into that a lot, I always insist that they see a doctor to rule out any illnesses.
<Sanguinarius> About Bipolar Disorder or Awakening?
<Anshar> Mike: I ALWAYS tell people to consult a doctor. It's one of the very first things that always comes out of my mouth.
<ThePinkLady> Mike: I agree. Happens at least once a week on the Vampirism Yahoo Group.
<Sylvere> @Mike: I have a standard answer to the "am I a vampire" and it starts with "GO TO THE DAMN DOCTOR"
<Merticus> Yes, consultation with a doctor is important for anyone (and on a regular basis).
<SphynxCatVP> (A) Info Continuity: I think some things - that we as experienced folk would consider obvious - ought to be stated plainly everywhere: Consult a doctor. Monitor your health. Know what runs in your family. Understand the ramification of ailments you already have, etc.
<SphynxCatVP> Understanding one's own health and natural body processes certainly go a LONG way towards understanding what's going on - especially for someone who's in their teens.
<Mike_Future> Yes, we do tell them to see a doctor. The problem seems to be that they won't or they use the standard "the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with me".
<cynsanity> The problem we encounter at the VCMB often enough is that the kids they saw a doctor and that "everything is alright".
<Zimmerchild> Sphynx: Agreed.
<Isealdor> Pretty much everyone I get complaining of various physical symptoms is instantly told to check with a doctor, that's kind of a given.
<Diaboluslupus> Mike - Me too. I usually have a laundry list of medical conditions I suggest people eliminate 1st (diabetes, thyroid, etc.)
<Sylvere> After a trip to the doc, I tell them to see a psychiatrist.
<Anshar> Same, Sylvere.
<Anshar> Though I often remark on the irony of the person who says they’re vampire telling someone else to seek professional counseling.
<Mike_Future> I think it’s important for the websites and forums to have a disclaimer about medical advice.
<ThePinkLady> So what happens when there's someone giving people the kind of information they want to hear? "I'm a big bad vampire lord and it’s not anemia - it’s vampirism!"
<ThePinkLady> How hands-on should we be?
<Marcus_Noir> Mike: that is because these newbies view the diagnosis of being a vampire as form of escape instead of dealing with their real issues.
<Mike_Future> Agreed Marcus.
<cynsanity> How can we get someone to the doctor who might have a seriously debilitating disease? If they want to think it’s vampirism, they will find their resources.
<Isealdor> @cynsanity - I get a lot of that, too. If they are severe symptoms, I'm likely to tell them they might want to get a second opinion. Otherwise, psychiatrist.
<Deacon_Gray> Perhaps... but how many of us are trained and accountable for more?
<AcrophobicPixie> PinkLady, I will point them in the direction needed, but I refuse to lead them by the hand.
<Vyrdolak> You can't talk people out of believing what they want to believe.
<Merticus> No, you can't.
<SphynxCatVP> I've got the wherewithal to go poking around Medline and other conventional medical sites to dig up information to club people with. :) I realize not everyone else has the same medical search skills or terminology knowledge, though.
<Sanguinarius> I think we need to be more hands-on than we are now.
<Vyrdolak> That's the peril of putting out information in public at all.
<Isealdor> @Sangi hands on how?
<Marcus_Noir> More hands on?
<Sanguinarius> I'm not sure, more involved, though.
<ThePinkLady> I think it'd be smart to keep a list of bad sources at least behind-the-scenes.
<ThePinkLady> We're made up of a bunch of luminaries--wouldn't a rubric help us identify the latest bad stuff?
<Isealdor> @PinkLady - I don’t see much point in all of the blacklisting ideas... better usually to just promote the things we do think are worthwhile, personally.
<Sanguinarius> That'd work, Isealdor
<Sylvere> Define "bad stuff."
<Vyrdolak> Just today I was over on SangSpace and saw the "rant" about "elders in the community telling people they aren't really vampires".
<Vyrdolak> Writer was complaining that "seekers" shouldn't be "told" they are or aren't vampires by "elders".
<Sanguinarius> Who SHOULD they be told that by then?
<Marcus_Noir> Vyrdolak: I heard of that happening in Gotham lately actually.
<Sanguinarius> Someone needs to tell them.
<Sylvere> Can we list "astral symbionts" with "bad stuff"?
<ThePinkLady> Sylvere: poorly-cited, poorly-sourced, uses Jim Bob's House of Blood as a recommended site, etc.
<ThePinkLady> Bad info.
<AcrophobicPixie> or "My Teddy Bear made me a vamp" articles.
<Sylvere> You tell lies, Mr. Bear. Lies!
<Marcus_Noir> Some people just need a good slap of reality and a look in the mirror, in my opinion.
<SphynxCatVP> Agreed :)
<Zimmerchild> Just about every site, has something good, and worth looking at in it, so I don't think a blacklist, even behind the scenes would be helpful.
<Merticus> It's not such much a need to point out "bad info" as it is to simply not include it in the reputable sources directories... that in effect covers that and avoids blacklist/lists/etc.
<Merticus> Let the quality information rise to the top.
<Isealdor> @Merticus - exactly
<ThePinkLady> If not a blacklist of specifics, maybe a watch list of general bad habits?
<ThePinkLady> Teach the community that if a fact isn't sourced, it's fiction?
<ThePinkLady> That a personal account needs some sort of time/date reference point?
<Diaboluslupus> @PinkLady - Yes!
<Vyrdolak> Whoa! That will exclude just about everything!
<SphynxCatVP> Yea, pretty much.
<Marcus_Noir> Problem here, again, is that we are dealing with individual belief...
<Marcus_Noir> So I don't care how big we make the info and bowtie it together, IF an individual wants to think they're a vampire, then they'll believe what they want.
<Marcus_Noir> Period.
<Mike_Future> The community is largely based on opinion.
<Zimmerchild> @PinkLady: A general list of bad habits does sound better.
<Sanguinarius> Most people don't want it sourced. They want the fiction, they want to escape.
<Vyrdolak> Not "belief" and "opinion" so much as "subjective experience" and "anecdotal information".
<Mike_Future> Agreed
<Anshar> Vyrdolak: I don't think anyone could really tell anyone else that they are or are not, regardless of age. Vampirism isn't exactly a condition with big bold signs and the burden of proof is still quite heavy on our backs as is. Pointing fingers to anyone but ourselves seems at the very least unproductive, and at worst a hypocritical farce.
<Diaboluslupus> I think there is a lot of common sense missing questions that we could answer.
<Diaboluslupus> Such as "can you be turned", Biting as a method of sang feeding.
<Marcus_Noir> Agrees with Diaboluslupus
<Isealdor> @Marcus very true...but that doesn’t mean we can’t counteract that as a norm, nor does it mean we have to enable that sort of belief.
<Vyrdolak> The VC has in common with many "advocacy" communities a resistance to challenging its premises.
<Vyrdolak> This is a cultural issue, not just the VC's
<Vyrdolak> But the VC also has a HUGE resistance to seeing itself as part of its surrounding cultural environment.
<ThePinkLady> Freely asking around for donors.
<Merticus> Attempt to teach them to use common sense and find the answers for themselves... there has to be some personal responsibility in this community.
<Merticus> Subjective of course to your own desire to handle such.
<AcrophobicPixie> Yes, Merticus, there does... But where does responsibility end and hand holding start?
<Marcus_Noir> Sorry, but I don't believe in holding hands...
<Merticus> As much as you're willing to go.
<Mike_Future> Tough love is the approach I take.
<Anshar> The question has to be whether or not it's something the VVC needs to focus on.
<Sylvere> I don't like people enough to hold their hands.
<Sanguinarius> People need to learn to think for themselves.
<Anshar> Not if it's an issue, that's it's own thing. We have to ask if this body needs to do something.
<Merticus> It's more something everyone who runs a site needs to focus on.
<Merticus> Not just a "VVC" thing.
<Isealdor> I don’t think it's something the VVC needs to focus on so much as us as individuals, in our own sites and circles.
<Anshar> Alright, but that would be its own separate thing then, not a VVC matter as far as what 'we' need to do.
<SphynxCatVP> Correct
<Sanguinarius> Collectively
<Merticus> Only we ourselves can answer if we're prepared to answer outside inquiry etc. and the information we present internally to the community is quality by our own determination or not.
<ThePinkLady> Marcus: Is it arrogant of me to think that I'm one of the few who can separate useful info from useless? Judging from the vamps and other fringe types in my tiny hayseed off-the-Internet life, I'll hazard a yes. :P
<ThePinkLady> Do we let the morons run free or try and steer them towards useful information so they don't hurt others or themselves?
<Mike_Future> We try to steer them.
<Sanguinarius> Try and steer them to the info, I say.
<Marcus_Noir> PinkLady: It’s not arrogant... it’s just the truth.
<SphynxCatVP> They don't always want to be steered, but we try :)
<Anshar> I guess I just wonder if it's really our responsibility to handhold the weak-minded, gullible, and misled.
<Diaboluslupus> Anshar - provide basic good info/safe is more a matter of PR. You can't control the stupid, but you can show you tried to warn them.
<Vyrdolak> The main reason I think the forums, etc are more harmful than helpful.
<Vyrdolak> Is that I think we can only truly help "seekers" and each other one-on-one.
<Marcus_Noir> I still apply to a bit a Darwinism...
<Mike_Future> We have to, Marcus.
<AcrophobicPixie> All we can do is try to steer them in the right direction but if they refuse to listen to common sense from a person who's been around in the VC for longer than they have, what can we do? Nada
<Vyrdolak> Yeah, but the failures tend to take others down with them, Marcus.
<Marcus_Noir> Vyrdolak: If they're allowed to. At the same time, I've seen some so called elders just prey upon newbies... this topic is a double edged one at that.
<Sanguinarius> Unfortunately.
<Anshar> The Catholic Church certainly doesn't have a branch of itself devoted to keeping Christian Cults from harming themselves. I guess I just can't help but be skeptical of a quest to inform the ignorant, when the ignorant have no desire of learning any truth.
<Merticus> Well to bring it back... engaging law enforcement directly (part four of that question)?
<Merticus> I assume everyone has seen the videos and stories etc. on Don Rimer, etc?
<Sanguinarius> The scaremonger?
<Isealdor> (4) I see engaging LE directly as potentially much more harmful than helpful
* SphynxCatVP agrees with Isealdor
<Mike_Future> I'm still torn on the law enforcement issue.
<Deacon_Gray> I think we should on a minor level, allow them contact info, some basic overview stuff, but past that... they want us to be villains.
<AcrophobicPixie> 4: YES! Yes, yes, yes yes yes. I don’t know who we would contact that is credible. Rimer in my mind is not a credible source. But if we had the information available, and gave them contact information for if they have questions, I think that it would put a good face on our community, and hopefully make us look less weird and creepy. But we shouldn’t make us look like fluffy bunnies.
<Sylvere> If we create any sort of standardized presentation, maybe it should be limited to what we, the VVC, think and we can let people repost it if they want.
<SphynxCatVP> I can see good points to getting legal folks involved, but really, until they recognize we're not cultists trying to eat people's children... it's more of a hassle than it's worth.
<Sylvere> We would, of course, have to include the standard disclaimers of In Our Opinion, YMMV, yadda yadda yadda.
<Vyrdolak> We need to consider what the motivations of law enforcement really are.
<Vyrdolak> I dealt with law enforcement and so on professionally when I worked at the shelter.
<Vyrdolak> Alternative communities tend to misunderstand what the police want and need .
<Merticus> It sometimes varies depending on who you are dealing with.
<Merticus> Which is one reason I think it needs to be an individual based decision.
<Diaboluslupus> Vyrdolak - motivation is probably supplement income with lecture fees.
<Vyrdolak> But who is paying, Diaboluslupus? That's the point.
<Anshar> Informing Law Enforcement and the judicial system of things from a pragmatic perspective I can agree with at least. That's a simple defense of our own civil rights and avoiding discrimination and mistreatment.
<Isealdor> The fringe aspects of the community that LE is concerned with are /not/ part of the mainstream VC. Given that, by and large, the community is law abiding and nonviolent, to directly approach LE and try to give them information about the community is going to only serve to draw spotlight on us and actually solidify the perceived connection between the violent groups who claim the vampire name and our community, instead of keeping us as distinct as possible
<Anshar> I think care should be taken in only sharing with them the things that are most pertinent to those topics, however.
<Deacon_Gray> They don't want more vampire freaks lunatics killing people, or kids going missing. We would basically just be trying to separate ourselves from the others.
<Deacon_Gray> And it would only apply to the VVC...outside of this group we cannot speak for members of other peoples websites...hell even some of our own.
<Merticus> It's hard to maintain a divide when some of us are still on Vampirefreaks, link on VampireRave, and other sites that don't have strict age enforcement or other steps to monitor their members.
<ThePinkLady> Maybe it's because Don Rimer's more approachable to others because he's a former police officer.
<ThePinkLady> Until we can get the equivalent in social standing, we can't match him.
<Vyrdolak> It's a question of credibility.
<Vyrdolak> Cops will listen to other cops, former cops, military, people with degrees.
<Vyrdolak> Not so much representatives of the communities they're eying suspiciously.
<Isealdor> @PinkLady ...Rimer, approachable?
<ThePinkLady> Isealdor: I meant as what he does.
<Marcus_Noir> This is an issue with all subcultures in the country, not just ours.
<ThePinkLady> I imagine Rimer spends a lot of his time talking to hayseeds. Hayseeds worship cops.
<AcrophobicPixie> Not necessarily more approachable, but he's apparently known in the Law community for being a "weird shit" expert.
<Anshar> Ultimately though... what purpose would we be serving with Law Enforcement? There ARE dangerous and deranged "vampires" out there. All we could really do is create a distinction between them and ourselves. That doesn't erase their need to be watchful for psychos.
<Anshar> Or the public need to be watchful for psychos, for that matter.
<Sanguinarius> Just don't watch US as the psychos.
* Sylvere is still not sure why we aren't boycotting VampireFreaks.
<Vyrdolak> Sylvere--who is patronizing VampireFreaks? Not me!
<Marcus_Noir> People like Don Rimer are preying upon the police to get a paycheck, let's be honest here about that.
* Sanguinarius agrees with Marcus_Noir
<Isealdor> @Marcus exactly.
<Merticus> Yes, he gets paid for those presentations - as do other "satanic panic" cops left over from that era.
<ThePinkLady> Opportunists, right.
<Isealdor> There are a number in law enforcement who are involved in the VC...just by and large keep them separate and private, for career reasons.
<Vyrdolak> Deacon - When someone asks you seriously about OSV--what do you say?
<Deacon_Gray> I speak to the aspects they can understand... leave out the drama, and black lipstick and the candles and energy work.
<Deacon_Gray> Then I tell them to talk to Merticus.
<Sylvere> Anshar: There are psychos claiming to be "Goth" too but that didn't stop the Gothic Preservation Soc. from taking a stand against them.
<ThePinkLady> We can say the same about our *own* - Don Henrie if we look at it from that point of view. :P
<Anshar> The question is what is accomplished. We have to know exactly what we're after if we decide to do something, so our efforts don't become muddled.
<Anshar> I'm not saying we shouldn't talk to law enforcement or promote safety and information, I'm only saying that before we do we should create some realistic expectations of what we're going after so we know how to direct our efforts and when the work is 'finished'.
<Anshar> Going on some ill-conceived crusade of informing the ignorant could take lifetimes without fruitful results.
<Anshar> Goals before plans. Often I feel like we put the cart in front of the horse.
<Anshar> We plan without clear goals, and they stay unresolved plans.
<Vyrdolak> The ignorant usually are ignorant by choice.
<Isealdor> Or the lack of desire/need to not be ignorant.
<Marcus_Noir> Again, we're talking about the general public who when the word vampire is even mentioned, mentally conjures either Bela Lagosi, Tom Cruise, or the Twilight kid...
<Mike_Future> When we talk about law enforcement, are we talking about a general statement to be distributed?
<Anshar> Mike: Exactly. We need to pin down what we're talking about.
<Merticus> No, not a public or general statement, etc. More a private or direct dialogue by us as individuals.
<Merticus> Do all of us here at least have some working relationship with a law enforcement officer and/or could go to someone you know to discuss issues privately with one on a personal level?
<SphynxCatVP> Not me.
<Zimmerchild> Not currently.
<Deacon_Gray> Sure
<Deacon_Gray> I work at a Prison...
<Anshar> Merticus: LOL the law enforcement officer I know is a Sanguinarian.
<Anshar> But, my friend in the LA County Sheriff’s department who is already a member of the community might be able to give us some insight as to productive approaches, if you'd like.
<Sanguinarius> The closest thing I have is a cop that sits in our parking lot to do his paperwork.
<AcrophobicPixie> Merticus, I don't anymore. And when I did, I wouldn't go to them about this.
<Zimmerchild> I have a few friends that are in school for law enforcement fields.
<AcrophobicPixie> My community I grew up was kind of… stuck in the 50's
<ThePinkLady> Merticus: Possibly.
<AcrophobicPixie> Though, my brother is going into Law Enforcement, since he's out of the military police now.
<Deacon_Gray> Most of the cops I talk too, can understand things like... Reiki or Asian Chi.
<Deacon_Gray> When they ask about vampirism I link it to those things...its not perfect but it is close enough and not threatening
<Sanguinarius> How do you link drinking blood to Reiki?
<Deacon_Gray> I don't.
<Sanguinarius> See, psi vamps don't have much to worry about.
<Marcus_Noir> Here's a thought... how are OTHER subcultures, such as the pagan / witch community, handling the situation?
<Merticus> @Marcus - Kerr Cuhulain
<Merticus>
http://kerrcuhulain.blogspot.com/ <Merticus>
http://www.skepticfiles.org/cwr/cwr2-02.htm <Sylvere> He's spoken extensively to LE to dispel myths re:
Wicca/Paganism
<Mike_Future> Are we saying that we should each take a personal responsibility to contact LE?
<Marcus_Noir> I don't think the issue is so much with metro areas but more likely with the suburbs, correct?
<Marcus_Noir> Hell, the NYPD used to party with us :)
<Anshar> Sanguinarius, re Blood: I could, with an article, but it's not exactly the same in passing conversation.
<Isealdor> Ok, question... what do people hope/want to see accomplished by talking individually/privately with various LE?
<Diaboluslupus> But isn't often the media that whips the public into frenzy that gets LE acting in a reactionary manner (such as with satanic ritual abuse)?
<Sanguinarius> I think the cops are probably more concerned with people drinking blood and cutting people etc than they are with people who (think) they draw energy from outside sources.
<Deacon_Gray> Yes indeed, but the way around that is to have people willing to step up, or at lest keep track and send out statements to the media when those things come up.
<AcrophobicPixie> Yeah, but with the psychos recently being tied to vampirism in crimes, we should at least have someone that we can talk to
<Deacon_Gray> Cops are not really concerned about it at all from what I have seen.
<Merticus> @ Isealdor - the ability to diffuse local situations if such were to arise and be available as a contact point if an investigation is launched involving a "vampire".
* Sanguinarius perks up at Merticus
<Vyrdolak> There is an advantage to being a "go-to person" in the event that something happens in your area.
<Mike_Future> Indeed.
<Diaboluslupus> Deacon – Yes, I'd like to be able to boiler plate that I could send to local media when vampire news comes up or even have my meetup group members send.
<Isealdor> Basically...what's the point/goal here? It's all fine and dandy to say people should talk to LE, but about what and why?
<Sylvere> @Isealdor: You & I will probably never have to deal with something like this.
<Sylvere> Not much happening in the Midwest.
<Isealdor> @Sylvere you'd be surprised...
<Sylvere> Down where you live? Yeah, I would.
<Mike_Future> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of LE already know of our community.
<Isealdor> But the very vast majority of "vampire" investigations, etc. don’t actually have to do with the community
<Mike_Future> Agreed. It’s always the Rod Ferrell’s, etc.
<Deacon_Gray> The ones that do typically involve a pervert and some kids.
<Mike_Future> So our goal is to claim no responsibility for the actions of these people, even if they come from the VC?
<Sylvere> So when something like the VF killings or the "vampire cult preyed on my teen daughter" what do we do about it?
<Sylvere> Do we ignore it and hope it goes away or do we stand up & say something?
* Sanguinarius doesn't know
<Merticus> A direct link would need to be established linking them to the vampire community - not just the outliers, etc.
<Marcus_Noir> Stand up and say what though?
<Sylvere> @Marcus: Something similar to what the Wiccans said when the Satanic Panic happened.
<Isealdor> We ignore and make sure we stay as far away from all of it as we can, basically... don’t link to VF, make sure we promote things to the contrary (safe practices, nonviolence, etc.)
<AcrophobicPixie> It depends on the situation, Sylvere. If it's high profile, we should possibly say something
<Deacon_Gray> Indeed Sylvere exactly.
<Sanguinarius> What did they say?
<Sylvere> @Sangi: That "witchcraft" does not equal Satanism.
<Marcus_Noir> @Sylvere: but Wiccans can claim that they're a religion... we, for the most part, can not.
<Isealdor> If someone /else/ brings up some high profile "vampire" thing, then I'd say that we actively discourage anything of that sort.
<AcrophobicPixie> Sangi, they basically pointed out the dif between Satanism and paganism, and just because there's a pentangle involved, don't start a witch hunt.
<Vyrdolak> Which didn't work.
<Vyrdolak> The "Satanic Panic" didn't die down until millions of $ failed to produce a shred of evidence.
<Vyrdolak> Pagans did hundreds of hours of PR work and we were wasting our time.
<Marcus_Noir> Key Word: Money
<AcrophobicPixie> Not really, Vyrdolak, but it was at least a start.
<Diaboluslupus> Well how does the BDSM community then deal with the occasional BDSM related killing?
<Sanguinarius> Well, even Satanism's not "bad" per se, is it? I mean Zilchy's a Satanist isn't he?
<AcrophobicPixie> I don't think he is...
<Diaboluslupus> I'm a Satanist also.
<Deacon_Gray> We mostly shake our heads and stay off the radar for a while.
<Isealdor> @Diaboluslupus basically makes it as known as possible that that sort of behavior is not common nor accepted, and is highly acted against in the community
<Sylvere> @Marcus: We don't have to. What we *can* say is that the VC does not condone or promote violence & we frown on the activities in question as well as take offense at labeling the perpetrator a vampire.
<Deacon_Gray> Ultimately until we become a cause that is recognized, any official action will not be really even considered.
<Deacon_Gray> How many letters have we written when something DOES happen, that was even responded too or posted.
<Sylvere> @Deacon: How many letters were *written* period? My guess is zero.
<Deacon_Gray> I have written many.
<Vyrdolak> @Sylvere what about the perps who pronounce *themselves* vampires?
<Sylvere> @Vyrdolak: At that point, I don't have a problem calling bullshit.
<Vyrdolak> @Sylvere in which case it's just he said/she said to anyone else.
<Vyrdolak> @Syl have to disagree with that, from perspective of outsiders, we're just as nuts
<Sylvere> @Vyrdolak: Except that members of the VVC have more credibility.
<Diaboluslupus> @Sylvere - exactly when I talk with local media, I have to explain that vamp/donor relationships are consensual, non-violent, and generally private.
<Sylvere> @Vyrdolak: Silver Ravenwolf was a nobody until she wrote some books. Then she went to work for the Witch's Anti-Defamation League or whatever it was called.
<Merticus> On the Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA] (front page) we host a "We Support Law Enforcement" banner... and it’s effective with local law enforcement officers contacting us when they have a question.
<Sylvere> Good to know. I'll have to create one of those for the RVCA
<Marcus_Noir> @Merticus: You have a very unique situation with AVA that you've cultivated.
<Vyrdolak> Yes, I agree, AVA's situation is unprecedented.
<Merticus> Granted, though others could work on creating such in time.
<Isealdor> Honestly... just be open to answering questions from LE if they approach you.
<AcrophobicPixie> I'll look into getting involved with the fraternal order of police again... couldn't hurt.
<Anshar> I would say our best option for promoting civil rights is most likely through umbrella laws that cover consensual sexual acts and BDSM. LE is going to investigate cult activity regardless of whether the accusations are valid, just like they'll investigate a noise complaint without hearing it for themselves. How realistic are our goals?
<Merticus> They are realistic on a micro and individual level Anshar... which is probably all they will ever be.
<Merticus> You can take care of issues in California, etc.
<Merticus> Other people can work to handle their own areas.
<Merticus> Ok let's move on to Question B.
Author