Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]

Vampires & Vampirism => Vampire Community & Subcultural Discussion => Topic started by: Zerochan on April 21, 2011, 11:07:32 am



Title: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: Zerochan on April 21, 2011, 11:07:32 am
So, another member of the community has been declared sin nomine. Well, I don't know all the details behind this current fiasco, but I do know of the particular community member. Yeah, JP Vanir is annoying. But, there are a lot more people in the community that annoy me worse than JP ever will. Do I run about declaring Sin nomine on them? No. That, and I'd certainly have bigger fish to fry than JP. It's at a point in this community where people run about acting as though every dissenting thought is worthy of being lynched or something. Isn't sin nomine only supposed to be implemented when the member in question has committed some MAJOR crime in the eyes of the community? You know, like cases where we have dimwits like JS running about and threatening ALL OF US? Isn't is supposed to be a community decision, rather than that of individual houses? If you're going to declare sin nomine on someone, you had better have a damn good reason, because it's something that should be put to community vote.

Am I defending JP? Hell no. I dislike him to the point where I'm just completely apathetic. However, what has irked me is individuals deciding who can and can't participate with the community as a whole. You don't want a specific member in your house or forum? Simple. Wield the mighty banhammer, then announce your dissoiciation. It's as simple as that. Or we could stop feeding the trolls in general. Or, our community as a whole could just shape up and stop acting like trolls to one other over simple disputes. Whichever comes first.

Let common sense prevail.
Zerochan


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: masticina on April 21, 2011, 01:37:28 pm
I never even took Sin Nomine serious. It isn't as if we have an official court we do have elders and houses but do we have an official court? Not really!

And JP .. whatever

There are worse people out there I agree those that use politics and/or are breaking big laws. Can we really excommunicate or silence anybody. Their own behavior already puts them in the outer pack, they already are excommunicated by their own behavior a Sin Nomine ends up nothing more then an "official" reaction from the community and houses. Remember that not all are bound to houses and organizations. Not to mention with the influx of the newer communities, aka otherkin and therians things certainly there are changes happening.

Still who am I to take the power of "Sin Nomine" away from the elders of the houses. It is their house of what many are old and of many generations. As outsider I am simply not to take away any power, but to me such power doesn't exist to begin with. An internal power is defined by those that agree and accept such power, outside of the situation such ruling is well not there.

Lets just hope that with the help of the police we can deal with the nasty ones that will damage others. Simple and clear cut..






Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: deacongray on April 21, 2011, 02:10:28 pm
So you do not want to know if someone is sexually abusing kids? You do not want to know that someone who is now on your forum, has been stealing other peoples written works...You want to bury your head in the sand, close your eyes and ears and hope that the problem person doesn't come to your board, house, event and cause problems.

Hey thats up to you...I for one want to be aware of trouble, I like knowing that someone out there is dangerous, or might rip off my work. If Trolls are your biggest worry...go ahead stay in the dark, I have no issue in calling you a mushroom.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: darkwitch on April 21, 2011, 02:27:43 pm
I am totally out of the loop.  I was wondering if anyone else is feeling tired, hopelessly depressed?


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: ClayCat on April 21, 2011, 02:31:25 pm
Abusing children falls under the major crime mentioned in the original post. As far as plagiarism goes, that happens so often in the community that it would result in many people being banned, and since some of those people are major players, that likely isn't going to happen. In fact, when I first read the original post, I thought I was reading a quote by someone other than the OP.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: masticina on April 21, 2011, 08:25:30 pm
Ah Child Abuse yes we heard that before sadly it happens. And such is what the Vine does not send out a warning to all groups of one who breaks such levels.

Maybe you are totally right Deacon and my words are hollow. My question is simple what the hell did Vampire JP do to deserve an ousting. In cases of Child Abuse, Hitting people trying to court youngsters.. now those things I agree with that is very bad for community. Stealing stuff, sure send out a warning on a certain point it will be hard to write original materials I fear though.

Ugh it smells like allot of trouble and drama and allot of hurt feelings. the joy of community..


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: masticina on April 21, 2011, 08:37:37 pm
To my reaction to Sin Nomine, as I just read the declaration [yup tired and late and little slept a joy to deal with these issues] it is based upon 5 houses. Fine for me.. any house has the power to exclude or excommunicate.

It won't make the problem go away I fear. but such is the old ways... at times one of the best choices I am sure. JP copying others stuff... mmm trouble. And yet I question how far this issue goes.. how deep the roots go. I have lost him out of my eyes as he wandered back into the shadows. Good for him it seems.. we cannot always stop someone from making mistakes.

Signing off, and crawling into bed :!



Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: legardored on April 21, 2011, 08:40:33 pm
As far as the info presented at this point it seems to me they are just given a statement that he is considered Sin Nomine in the 5 mentioned houses and these actions and thats it.
Quote from: RKCoon
Because of the agreement of the five councils and the members therein, this announcement is to serve as notice that JP has been deemed to be Nameless and officially recognized as Sin Nomine in these five Houses.
http://www.atlantavampirealliance.com/forum/index.php?topic=2401.msg18940#msg18940
So I really can't see how this decision would remotely concern the rest of the community. They are in there full right to disassociate themselves from others I wouldn't call it the most preferable or smart solution but its there decision.

To me personally Sin Nomine holds no value. As long as someone hasn't wronged me or associates I'am not gonna disassociate myself with the said person or group. If they did tried to get under my skin I will just ignore them or use them. Why would I give any person the satisfaction of being remotely considered a threat.

No fancy titles needed if you do care about warning people. Just give them the full story from both sides and let them decide. And thats something I think is lagging in this announcement.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: paindancer on April 22, 2011, 11:48:49 am
Sin Nomme runs the risk of allowing people to do the thinking for you.  As such, it opens the potential for abuse.  I am not saying the groups in question are doing so.

I agree, there may be some really bad things afoot here, and I may agree that the person in question should be blacklisted if I were presented with the information.  Granted, not every scenario allows for open discussion in the name of protecting victims, etc.  but I have not been privy to that information.

To blindly accept others opinion as my own?  No, I cannot.  I will take it as data for consideration, but really cant let propaganda (no matter how accurate it may be) totally dictate my thought process.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: deacongray on April 22, 2011, 04:06:41 pm
I don't think anyone is even trying to dictate  your thought process....I'm pretty sure thats not even possible but hey who knows I watch the mentalist I suppose manipulation could get you to do some pretty interesting things...but thats not really the point.

I always find these kinds of things amusing, I mean the post comes out about someone getting in trouble and people rush to it adding drama while screaming about how much they hate drama. Of course most of them don't comment about positive stories, just the ones that are negative, its the only ones a lot of people seem to read just so they can complain about ..."oh dear god" ( fore arm rising to their heads) I hate the drama of this community.. I wish it would everyone would just grow up but alas....no..."

The only drama you normall see on the internet is the drama you involve yourself in and thus make it a bigger drama...

Look JP got caught ripping off peoples written works. If you don't write I am sure thats not an issue for you, if you do write it tends to be a pretty big deal. What people fail to understand is that in stealing others work people like JP influence new people nito thinking he knows a lot, and has a lot of time in the community, and is super wise...which we all know from expirence he isn't. But he also has real people who have fallen for this stuff come to his house from other states, he ha had a lot of complaints about bad behavior from those people...not saying he is a rapist or somthing, but he is useing other peoples work to manipulate the newly awakened


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: legardored on April 22, 2011, 06:58:39 pm
Look JP got caught ripping off peoples written works. If you don't write I am sure thats not an issue for you, if you do write it tends to be a pretty big deal. What people fail to understand is that in stealing others work people like JP influence new people nito thinking he knows a lot, and has a lot of time in the community, and is super wise...which we all know from expirence he isn't. But he also has real people who have fallen for this stuff come to his house from other states, he ha had a lot of complaints about bad behavior from those people...not saying he is a rapist or somthing, but he is useing other peoples work to manipulate the newly awakened
If we are talking about plagiarism shouldn't this be especially highlighted instead of saying just theft? Preferably with the specific articles or titles by name. That way people have a higher change of recognizing the copies from the originals not to mention its good publicity for your or others there documents. Any blanks in a announcement, statement can be turned by the other party in there advantage. I have no idea how resourceful this JP is but anyone with a bit imagination could think up some story that less skeptical people would fall for as explanation. Not saying he is out to turn this to his advantage but I like to review all possible courses in situations.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: display on April 22, 2011, 07:28:39 pm
So, another member of the community has been declared sin nomine. Well, I don't know all the details behind this current fiasco, but I do know of the particular community member. Yeah, JP Vanir is annoying. But, there are a lot more people in the community that annoy me worse than JP ever will. Do I run about declaring Sin nomine on them? No. That, and I'd certainly have bigger fish to fry than JP. It's at a point in this community where people run about acting as though every dissenting thought is worthy of being lynched or something. Isn't sin nomine only supposed to be implemented when the member in question has committed some MAJOR crime in the eyes of the community? You know, like cases where we have dimwits like JS running about and threatening ALL OF US? Isn't is supposed to be a community decision, rather than that of individual houses? If you're going to declare sin nomine on someone, you had better have a damn good reason, because it's something that should be put to community vote.

Am I defending JP? Hell no. I dislike him to the point where I'm just completely apathetic. However, what has irked me is individuals deciding who can and can't participate with the community as a whole. You don't want a specific member in your house or forum? Simple. Wield the mighty banhammer, then announce your dissoiciation. It's as simple as that. Or we could stop feeding the trolls in general. Or, our community as a whole could just shape up and stop acting like trolls to one other over simple disputes. Whichever comes first.

Let common sense prevail.
Zerochan
just to make a valid point Zero...
not all of us are stuck in Cyber land...
the ban button no click in the real world...
and i will run my house as the members see fit... we voted, it passed end of story...
you didnt vote simply , your not in these houses/ councils


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: RKCoon on April 23, 2011, 08:57:56 pm
A few things Ive noticed --

1. Not  everyone really READ the damned statement - in that they feel I was a part of it, or that this is an OVC wide, hes banned from everything, proclamation. Neither are truue - I simply posted it (and agree with it obviously) and that this was five houses - both on and off line - getting together and stating clearly "He is not welcome among US, and this proclamation is to inform others of this and to warn others of his behavior".

2. The demand for proof. Well, in some ways, I can certainly see wanting to judge such a topic fairly and impartially,I can also state that JPs actions have long been on public record and many houses simply are fed up with him.  Perhaps if I were the one MAKING the proclamation directly (instead of being messenger raccoon) I would have done this, but that was not the choice of the groups involved; further, i would point out that there ARE circumstances where the specifics of certain crimes are not revealed to the general public.  That said, JPs own behavior since this action was taking speaks for itself; hes done a wonderful job digging his own grave since then, as well as others close to him wanting to be like him and get their own asses roasted publicly.

3. The resulting backlash from this action. JP certainly had a lot of friends, a lot of people were QUITE upset when this went down - however, his ranks have thinned because of this, and people are now increasingly aware of his sheer stupidity. However, there has also been the effect of a closer scrutiny on those in ANY way associated with this proclamation - myself included. I suppose this is fair in some regards, but I find it highly amusing how many people, despite being told repeatedly, refuse to accept that I had anything to do with the initial action or that JP is in fact guilty of at least some of the accusations against him.

4. The effectiveness of the Sin Nomine itself.  Being someone that had a group of characters try and proclaim this against me to sooth their egos that I so handily shredded, I was not expecting near the reaction that this one got. Granted, up to the point of this JP was substantially more popular than I am, but in this it also proves an amusing point - people are not quite as fussy with who they associate as perhaps they should be, and would rather believe lies than truth.

Ultimately, I would say that in this instance, despite (or perhaps because of) some butthurt feelings, the overall effect has been a positive one for the OVC as a whole - people are paying a bit more attention to what they do.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: Zerochan on April 24, 2011, 01:28:50 am
I said in the OP that I didn't know the specifics of things. My opinion was solely on individuals (I count houses as such) declaring sin nomine, which by definition is community wide banishment. I also said, in nicer terms, that I couldn't care less if JP get hit by a truck, as he annoys the he'll out if me.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: deacongray on April 24, 2011, 01:01:50 pm
See...told ya we need to set down definitions clearly, not based on what the community see's the definition as, but as what those who are involved see the term to mean...so there is less confusion as to the origionators intent.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: masticina on April 29, 2011, 07:05:36 am
In the end JP ends up with very little

Taking other peoples work as INSPIRATION is not bad as long as you then write your own stuf based upon such. And of course say where you got said information. So JP is losing "Friends" *chuckle* Sorry if you lose friends they never we're friends to begin with. Guess he tries to play the popular card and lost out,

I think most elder worthy individuals rather not be on the foreground like JP tries to be [not saying he is an Elder ;)] .. being in the light makes you blind of the shadow.


Title: Re: An Opinion On Sin Nomine
Post by: JasonConstantine on May 11, 2011, 12:53:35 pm
Sin Nominae is retarded ... just more people trying to CONTROL the community ... so tired of this bullshit.