Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]

Therianthropy & Otherkin => Therianthropy & Were => Topic started by: The Sentinel on August 27, 2010, 06:30:38 PM



Title: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on August 27, 2010, 06:30:38 PM
Okay, so I have a bit of a confusion boiling around my brain and I was wondering if anyone could clarify it for me. To start off, I guess I should explain a bit about myself and my situation before asking any questions.

I am not certain I'm anything, I don't necessarily believe I'm a "were-" anything. I know I have animal totems - two of them. They were confirmed by a very powerful Native American shaman. I know that my totems are the Snowy Owl (male) and Black Panther (female). I am very strongly tied to both of these animals. I feel them both very intensely and have felt their influence in my life in the totemic sense.

However, with the panther there are times that I don't wonder that she's more than that. There are times when I can feel her stalking somewhere through me, I can almost feel as though I have her sitting behind my face, fangs and all, ready to pounce something. Particularly when angry, I can almost feel her take over my body to some extent, it's very strange. I often, in those circumstances, feel confused when I realize I don't have a mouthful of fangs, nor do I have claws to rend things with. It's a great eal of raw, intense sensation that I can't quite explain any other way.

I also behave in a manner that is very feline. I purr, I will nuzzle people in a manner that is very distinctly feline, I react in a very feline manner to a great many things. I also have a habit of playing with string and so on, as well as chasing or pouncing on things that move. That isn't just in the cute "aw, kitten play!" manner and I don't feel like I'm just goofing off, those instincts are very deeply ingrained in my psyche and I tend to just... do it without thinking. I meow as well, I hiss, I growl, and all that nonsense. My other half can attest to it.

Also, in a strange twist of fate, my fiancee has always found a great deal of peace resting with his hand on my stomach (belly in particular, oddly) and it has been said that patting a cat lowers blood pressure and such. I'm not certain what any of this actually means in terms of what I am, or if it means anything, but I guess I'm kind of asking if it could be some kind of were-animal behavior?

I have a group of friends and we identify as a pack. They're all canine in nature (very different than I am) and yet I manage somehow to be the alpha. I think to be honest that it's because I'm the oldest by about 3 years (and with some by 6+) and I have a very dominant personality while they have more submissive personalities. Either way, they all identify as canids (wolves, primarily). We are very, very physical with each other in play, we tackle each other, we bite (in an entirely nonsexual manner, I don't mean an eroticized biting) and so on, our version of play also gets very rough with the wrestling and so on and people often get bruised and so on. But it's all affectionate. We all are very animalistic and when greeting we often will just instinctively rub up against each other while hugging and what not - it's not an intentional thing it just kind of happens and has for years.

We aren't intentionally identifying ourselves as anything, we aren't trying to put ourselves out there as therianthropes. But anyway, my question is more personal - what am I? Is this just a close tie to a totem animal or am I a therian?


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Hellflame on September 03, 2010, 01:53:59 PM
I donít believe that you are a wolf. You sound more like a cat women, which, while not as dangerous as a true blooded wolf, can still be pretty strong and good at ripping creatures to shreds. But something that I have to say is that you should probably not date a Werewolf (I hate saying therianthrope) When I dated a cat women she tried clawing at my neck and I nearly broke her hand. Just saying from personal experience.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: paindancer on September 03, 2010, 02:26:36 PM
Sentinel,

Broken down into the most simplistic terms, its safe to say that most therians are either kin or have a strong totemic presence.  Lets face it, no one is currently changing into anything else, despite how much our bodies may hurt or want to.  Still the lines between totem and kin can get very blurred.  One could say its an internal/external debate.. but then again.. I can find myself undoing my own statement.  Id have to think more on it.

Sounds to me, you might be best served by, at least for now, view it along totemic lines, but who is to say for sure.  Not I.  Not the shaman.  Thats a path for you and you alone.

From my experience.. I have a totem of octopi and wasps/bees, go figure.  It dosnt cause me much discomfort however.. or behavioral changes.  But, outside of the old memory, or the occasional visit from a local hive (people still get wierded out when a honeybee lands on my hand for a chat) it dosnt play much in my daily life.

You seem to have something more core.. pulling you, leading you on.  Perhaps you and your panther need to meet.

Ultimately, however.. you are you.  That is probably the best label I can give you on the topic.  Explore.. see where your panther leads perhaps.

Hellflame,

Its a bit concerning that you attribute a lack of control on your part to an external attribute of therianism.  By your own words.. you nearly injured someone.  That dosnt mean you have so much power.. just you have so little control.   Thats a weakness.. not a strength.  Be careful, and always be mindful of your actions.. even more so if you truly have the connection you claim.





Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 03, 2010, 06:24:37 PM
Hellflame:

I don't think I'm a wolf either, that's why I said therianthrope not lycanthrope. To be honest, I would say that felines are just as dangerous as canids. The advantage a canid has is a pack, but you put a panther up against a solitary wolf and that panther likely will win by sheer size ratio. However, their downfall is that they are solitary so the wolves likely have a pack to turn to for defense and protection whereas felines are more solitary.

I don't know what kind of crazy kinky stuff you were at, but I bite and claw at my big wolf man all the time (My fiancee's totems are wolf and tiger) and he loves it. Of course, we're pretty rough anyway, and I don't just mean sexually, I mean in general.


PD:
Thank you! That's the most insightful response I've recieved on this question anywhere I've asked yet. I have spoken to my panther, but she does not use words, she simply uses cat noises. She comes out often, almost taking over my body in many situations. I have another totem - a snowy owl - but he is by far the lesser of the two. However, he is still there.

You have an ocupus totem? I really... am having to restrain myself from teasing you about tentacle hentai ;) But all jest and joking aside, my totem causes a great deal of my behavior. I actually will behave as a cat very frequently and often find myself subconsciously thinking as a predator and a feline - I'm not a vampire so I can't blame my instincts to bite and such on that.

I do know that I am me, I'm not afraid of it I'm just trying to identify it. The quest for giving what I am, and experience, some kind of name is necessary for me because of my psychological state (I have CPTSD and so it's hard for me sometimes). I know I have a very deep pull somewhere, but I know my Panther, she's been with me for years. Same with the dragon (childish and silly as that may seem), though the owl is new. There's some kind of driving force behind all of this but I'm trying to piece together what. It's not easy.

Thank you very much for the guidance, PD, I appreciate it immensely.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: paindancer on September 04, 2010, 12:58:24 AM
Im glad it was helpful! 

I cant really claim were of any sort myself, but can certainly relate to not feeling human.  Hell, I dont even think its safe to say terrestial, lol.  But such is what it is.

I usually find it better to tackle the hard stuff with a bit of a buffer.  Considering it a totem or a past life is a nice mental compartment if nothing else.

There can be a mix of past lives, spiritual connection, and third party vibration going on.

And yeah.. I get ya on the times when the animalistic side wants to just take over.  For me.. its happened when I was really sick, or really drunk (heh).  Have a nice safe place with understanding people to keep an eye on you.. its a bit of a walk up to the abyss and look down scenario.  For me.. those experiences have been very rewarding.. offering insights of some of my pasts and current goals... but I cant say they were always pleasant.

How far down the rabbit hole will your panther lead you?

Heh, yeah.. tentacles and stingers.  I like them both.  I think the octopi really stems from a past life.. but yeah.. them critters have made an physical appearance in my life a few times.. and those Japanese are on to something:  Tentacles are AWESOME!  But.. they are wonderfully smart critters too.. tool users, strong and flexible. 

Bees and wasps.. especially, but many insects are very logical.. mindlessly so.  Practically robotic.. and with great styling too.  Makes sense for a engineer to have a connection with them.  ;)


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Darklilone on September 04, 2010, 01:04:00 AM
Quote
Is this just a close tie to a totem animal or am I a therian?
I've posted similar recently, and when i posted about it in another forum, it was mentioned that totem animals sometimes 'take over' or something like that to tell us things..
I'd keep an open mind about it, if you can ask your panther why this happens, or what it means, you should, but also observe and keep aware what goes on with yourself and find your own conclusion from the process..

sorry i can't offer much more for advice :(



Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 18, 2010, 05:39:31 PM
Hm. Apparently, some clarification would seem to be in order. 

From my personal experience - being one who is Therian and has danced more than one dance with this subject - the notions and concept of Therian and totem are different. Therian, by the definition I know it, is someone whose spirit, in whole or part, IS a real world animal (that is to say, faes, griffins and other mythological creatures aren't classed within Therianthropy).  As I have stated before, I am a raccoon Therian, meaning that a very large part - not all of it, but a substantial portion - of what makes up my living spirit is that of a raccoon. Its always a part of me, my conscious and subconscious, and its always having an effect on my behaviors and actions, usually subtle but not always.  On the other hand, totems are spirits that reside and originate outside ones own body and spirit, be it for the native belief of guiding and aiding, the walk-in concept, or outright spirits with malevolent intent. That latter would be in the grey area of weather its a totem or not, but the effects and results are quite similar - influencing the human life they are playing with.  One could further state that the key difference here is that a totem's influence may  'come and go', or go on and off light a light being switched - relating to weather the totem is present and active, or not.

Overall, the exterior result to most would appear similar, but internally - or those well educated and experienced in the topic - generally can see the difference. One could ask, "What does it matter?", to which I would respond, "the knowledge of ones own self identity and, for want of word, construction."

I would also suggest looking for yourself, rather than simply listening to others and what they think.   You might find yourself surprised by what you find.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: paindancer on September 19, 2010, 12:19:06 PM
I dunno koon, I think it is a blurirer concept than you are making it out to be, and the premise of 'if you dont agree you dont understand' dosn't bring much value to the table either.

I find, very often, our desire for individuality seperates us from what we are a part of.  Say for example a person understands they have a strong animal influence.  If they externalize it as something seperate, they gravitate to calling it totem.  If they internalize it.. they call it therian.  Perhaps.. these lines are simply not so clear cut in the first place.  I know I have traits.. I call them totem simply because I believe they are connections.. to other incarnations of other fractals of myself (I know.. sounds wierd here).  Its not completely external however.

having a connection to a animal type for me.. dosnt really fit totem or therian.  Its not a driving pattern in this lifetime, however.  A part of me, of which this existence is also a part of, likely was in fact something very similar to an octopus at one point.  Almost a second hand therianship, so to speak.



Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 19, 2010, 01:06:50 PM
Well, you could just simply like an animal too.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: sphynxcatvp on September 20, 2010, 02:28:29 AM
Quote from: RKCoon
As I have stated before, I am a raccoon Therian, meaning that a very large part - not all of it, but a substantial portion - of what makes up my living spirit is that of a raccoon. Its always a part of me, my conscious and subconscious, and its always having an effect on my behaviors and actions, usually subtle but not always.
I'm inclined to agree with RK's assessment here.

My caveat: I'm not therian. :) But vampirism can be described (in the basic principle as outlined above) in a similar manner, so I don't see why being therian would work that differently. 

I do see the totemic aspects as being different, more applying to those who are perhaps in touch with nature, or more spiritual, or whatever you call it...but not necessarily therian. (Though I don't see any reason why a therian wouldn't have a totemic guide or guides if the situation calls for it - and that may be where some of the confusion comes in. It can certainly blur the lines, at least.)



Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 23, 2010, 01:48:19 PM
I was told by a shaman they are totems, I know that the snowy owl is. I am not convinced that the panther isn't more than that, I've never really externalized it or internalized it, I just kind of felt a deep connection with them. Not in the sense that "ooh, they're pretty, I need posters!" since I don't have any posters or images of them anywhere and don't sit there drooling over them. I act in a manner that is unashamedly feline, ask anyone who knows me. That's why I'm asking about it, I have such a powerful feline instinct (down to pouncing on moving laser pointers...) that I had to question whether or not it was just a totemic creature or a part of me.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 01:28:36 AM
I note a running trend with you, Sentinel -- You are told a lot of things, my question to you is what do you think for yourself about it?


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 24, 2010, 04:28:15 AM
You know, RK, I'm told a lot of things and I tend to try and gain as much information as possible before forming my own conclusions, hence my asking other people that may know more than I do.

You seem to think that I wander along like a sheep following whatever people say. That couldn't be further from the truth. However, that doesn't mean that I won't deeply consider things told to me by people whose opinions and credibility I respect. And even people whose credibility and opinions I don't yet know and may not respect.

In my training and eventual completion of my degree in history, I was taught to gather as much information as humanly possible about a subject from as many sources as possible and then I compile and cross-reference it, considering the information, its source, its relevance and than taking into account what I think and feel about it before I draw any conclusions. What you are witnessing is the "information gathering" phase of my research and mistaking that for asking to blindly be led.

In the future, I wouldn't draw conclusions before gathering all the facts. It usually is unbecoming.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 04:41:13 AM
o.O Really? You really wanna go down that line of reasoning? You really want to make that claim?


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 24, 2010, 04:42:27 AM
Which one, the one that you're suggesting that I wasn't thinking or the line that I research things before I open my mouth?


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 04:52:34 AM
Both. Given what you have titled yourself, I find the claim that you research and think for yourself, rather hollow.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 24, 2010, 12:58:37 PM
What have I titled myself? Someone who has their BA?

And you can question whether or not I think for myself, the opinions of one internet goon won't really sway the overall arc of my studies and frankly, you aren't even really offering me any information I can use. Nor have you in the entire time I've bothered to read your posts so... Really... I'm just going to go back to doing what I was doing before: pretending you don't exist.

Edit: Oh wait that was an underhanded and sneaky comment about my being Christian. Priceless.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 07:51:19 PM
Nothing underhanded nor sneaky about it.    Surprised it took you a second chance to get the reference however.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Darklilone on September 24, 2010, 08:02:52 PM
RK, look. i really don't care if you believe in a religion or not. that's your choice. but to target another, and claim such things and USE their beliefs and religion against them...
That's just not right.
I don't even know what to say but i wanted to say something.
Take offense all you want, attack me if you care.
I've not had much if any problems with you around here till now.
i've respected your opinions and found your "shit stirring" on occasion to be interesting and thought-provoking..
I guess everyone has a first, huh. i guess i'm just disappointed, though i should have expected it.

Now, back ON to the topic, i hope..  -_-
**i'm sorry that i don't have really anything further to add to the original topic, atm .


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 08:15:51 PM
Ahh, but lets consider that a moment, darklilone -- To me, (and I will grant my logic isnt always flawless) it seems to be a logical fallacy to insist that one is an open minded self thinker, when one freely admits to adhering a two milenia old scripture that has long since proven to be chock full of historical errors, moral atrocities and outright evil, by any definition, is, to me, a grievous error in judgment, if not outright hypocrisy.  Further, I dont feel attacked at all by your comment, dark - but I am quite certain sentinel does.

All this comes back to the original point I was intending to make to sentinel - far too often I have personally seen people be led down the garden path, both regarding religion and kin, because they would rather `take someone`s word for what they are`than to seek the truth for themselves. People are far too eager to take something and say, `thats me!`rather than actually examine what it is they are looking at. Christianity is a classic example, requiring many multiple `leaps of faith`to subscribe to belief - whereas something like therianthropy or even vampirism, while still taking some `leaps of faith` i will concede, is nowhere near a stretch that religion, christianity and otherwise, is.  Sentinel demonstrated this twice over - in her faith in religion, and her faith of what others have told her, of herself.

I, personally, can admit to being wrong, if someone can rationally, logically, reasonably explain and demonstrate to me my error. People like sentinel, however, are not capable of that - and if you want to call that an attack, be my guest, but it wont change the accuracy of the statement.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Darklilone on September 24, 2010, 08:25:18 PM
Look, that's your opinion.
if someone has claimed a set of beliefs, can you not hope, or assume that they may have done their own research and wanderings and maybe they've managed to see soemthing that you've missed or overlooked?
Not all religions are bad. There are individuals who over-do it, i wont' disagree. but i don't see it as failed judgment or anything based on a couple, unrelated individuals.

>.< i really don't want to go into religion and the bible (christian). i've done some studies but not enough to keep my own in a conversation. I know enough and i'm satisfied with the information i've attained.
You're just being closed-minded and disrespectful towards someone who claims a religion, when you do not and disagree with their claims.
this thread was about her, therianthropy and her wonderings about it. NOT "let's attack each other's beliefs because we want to fuel our egos".

I just don't like it and would prefer that you cease completely or move it to pms. really.

*edit*
you're just as bad as those individuals though. They claim others as being wrong for not following their beliefs. you're claiming they're wrong for following their beliefs. and, like them, you refuse to see another side of things, and seem to present yourself as the all knowing, end all person.. Which you're not.
yes i've enjoyed some of your posts in the past.
yes i feel you offer another perspective to most things, which is great.
but this is just disrespectful. it's not offerign another perspective it's low, it's ignorant, arrogant, and it's mean. You're no better than those you claim to hate. You're just on the other side.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: display on September 24, 2010, 08:34:28 PM
Koon,
  It seems You are the only one to think this of sentinal.
I haven't read any other opinions about her yet, you are the only one to have such opinion... Its really sad that You constantly bring up  others members religion... I'M a CHRISTIAN So what ?...

Should I now Bow down and Kiss your arse oh great and powerful Vampire God?
Hell no!
Grow up will ya? Get what ever or how ever big, Cob out of your ass ... But this is just my opinion you know and not everyone will agree with me (even though most will)
Don't be offended Dear OZ,
Prove it wrong your not a DICK all the time


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 24, 2010, 08:46:42 PM
Thank you Dark Li'l One and Wraiths, I appreciate it. The intent of this thread was purely to gain information from other people that may be therianthropes out there and help give me perspective on what, exactly, it means and whether or not I fit that classification. I have no intent of dragging religion into this because it has no bearing on it whatsoever.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: display on September 24, 2010, 08:54:26 PM
No worries hun... Most likely I will get some type of censure about my last post..



Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Merticus on September 24, 2010, 09:07:00 PM
Play nice and try to not personally offend others... at least the best you can.  Thank you!


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 09:17:42 PM
Ahh yes, i see my point has been missed, well, once more with feeling.

Darklilone - Quite true, everyone is allowed to believe as they wish, and I certainly am not preventing sentinel, or anyone else for that matter, from believing whatever they want - I am simply endeavoring to keep things as clear and straight as possible, while noting aloud that i found her claims to be rather double standard ish. And you are also correct - everyone has an opinion, and if people dont like mine, they certainly dont have to read it - yet people do seem to read mine all the time.

Wraiths - Im not asking nor telling anyone to do anything at all. Im simply, as stated previously, pointing out my opinion, as someone who has been around the block more than once or twice.  That said, why should *I* play nice to someone who is not getting the hint, or those that would jump to the defense of a rather questionable position? Further, why is it that I am being told to grow up, when all I am doing, is asking sentinel to think for herself? I was unaware that was such a crime. I wont deny being a bit of a dick sometimes (and a bitch) but it would seem that I am currently in good company.  It takes one to know one, perhaps?  Although, I will admit, I find it rather amusing that instead of, as I previously asked for, people using logic, reason or rationality to counter my points, I instead get personal attacks. Quite amusing, actually.

Sentinel - Actually, it does, if by extension.  Again to repeat myself, both are things that 'take faith' to believe in. My entire point was to get you to not be so quick on the faith, but rather, think about what you see, what you are told, and what you believe, rather than taking it at face value. However, I have yet to see you do so, and that was what I was noting.

Mert - please, people find my mere presence offensive. ;)


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Darklilone on September 24, 2010, 09:34:55 PM
is asking sentinel to think for herself?

Then perhaps you should try a better approach. there are countless words in existance, and nearly that many ways to put them.
you would probably get a better, and more willing response from people.
just saying, though..




*silly edit*
Post number 123 ! ^_^


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Taris on September 24, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
I dont believe it is your presence that is offensive RK. I think it is more how you go about the conversation and tend to bring unnecessary topics into it. You work the conversation towards argumentative more than constructive in most of the posts. You say things that can and most likely will be taken offensively and do it constantly. Your opinion of whether or not she is being blindly led when you dont know whether or not she is isnt a educated conclusion its an assumption about her character and unrelated to the topic at hand.

Avoiding topics that have nothing to do with the post such as her religion would have eliminated a large portion of the argument I see. Personally, I dont see a point in feeding it which is why im not taking the stand of "Go Off yourself you Arsehole". But the conversation could have remained a conversation instead of an argument if you had simply decided not to bring it there.

It wasnt necessarily an attack... But it could be seen as one considering the content.

Anyway back to being non existent.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Night Watchman on September 24, 2010, 10:40:51 PM
You know, I'm seeing a lot of pointless condescending comments here and frankly I find it to be sad.  Allow me to approach this with points, if I may:

1) Religion:  Explain to me just what is wrong with having faith and belief in something bigger than yourself.  Most everyone is on this site because they are, or truly believe in, something that is above and beyond the normal everyday things that humanity sees with it's eyes and accepts as the norm.  In a world where the nerds have finally won, and where media is filled with magic, mythical creatures, and one ring that rules them all, it's damn hard to truly be who we are because you can't just want up to a normal individual and say "Hey, I'm a vampire," "Hey, I'm part wolf," or "I can project my spirit to another plane of existence," without you being laughed at.  Hell, there has been very few points in history where such things were readily accepted as anything other than heresy and that you wouldn't be ostracised or burned at the stake for.  So why is believing in a spirit, energy, god or any other such thing a bad idea or an act of selfless blind following? 

Now believe me, I am very much against the idea of religion in and of itself.  I consider myself Christian because I have a personal relationship with my god.  Is he your god?  Sentinels god?  Wraiths god?  Maybe, and maybe not.  However, this is where the topic of religion is often clouded and misunderstood.  The difference is between the ideas of "religion" and "faith".  I believe that organized religion can be a good and bad idea.  It is not a bad thing for people of similar belief to want to gather together and unite in their faith.  Also, church (for some communities) is the center of their community and do a lot of good to bring people together to help themselves and others.  However, lets take a look at how many times in history religion has poisoned minds.  Belief and organization of followers under those beliefs can lead to destructive things.  Look at what's going on in the world right now.  The Jihad?  And what about a little overlooked point in history called The Crusades?

I believe "faith" is a personal and internal thing.  Religion, as it's all often placed under the title of, is a fickle thing.  You will never find any two people with identical views on their belief and faith.  Even people of the same church each have their own ideas on how things work and their own faith in it.  Faith is personal.  Faith is internal.  Between you and whatever god or spirit you decide to believe in.

I am not religious.  I don't attend church, I don't go to confession, and I certainly enjoy a good steak on Fridays without being told I'm not allowed to for Lent.  But in my heart, I believe that there is something larger than me out there overseeing things and guiding me.  I have spoken to him, I have relationship with him, and in times that I have needed help when help seemed beyond me, asking for help seemed to have paid off.

I bring this up because I want to say that, yes, there are those that blindly follow religion like sheep.  Some out of ingnorance, some out of necessity.  Again, I refer to some of the Islamic extremists.  A man living in a 3rd world country, completely poverty stricken with absolutely nothing has someone with power or money come and spin tales of a god.  That if you strap a bomb to yourself and go walk into a building not only will your family be taken care of for the rest of their lives, but when you die you will be granted riches and praise in heaven forever.  How could you possibly pass up such a thing?!  You have such a strong need to believe this that you would do anything they ask of you.  However, that having been said, don't lump all people with faith into the same boat.  Some, like me, are not blind followers lead by some unseen herder.  Sentinel never said her faith is blind nor that she follows religion absolutely without understanding.  I know for fact that she actually wasn't religious at all until she took a college course on the break down and study of the bible and then decided, for herself, that she liked some of the ideals and then formulated her own personal idea of what that religion is, and developed her own faith and relationship with her god.

2) Sentinel has very specifically said that she is trying to figure out where she lies on the scale of totem, therian, or any other possible thing.  I don't know, Coon, where you're getting that she is blindly and blatantly following what others have told her without formulating her own ideas.  She is, by far, the most brilliant and logical human being I have ever known in my life.  Sentinel never walks into a single thing in her life without weighing the options and deciding what would be best for her or those around her.  All she did say is that she has formulated certain understandings of some things based on what she has been told or has researched herself over time, but that she is trying to work it out for herself exactly what it is she feels or is. 

She directly asked for others to explain their views and opinions about what she described so that she can gain a broader understanding of how others understand or experience the ideas of totemic belief, therianthropy, or maybe even something she hadn't considered yet.

We have, pretty much, all gone to school right?  Do you call your fellow students blind for believing the teacher when he said that 2 + 2 is 4?  Do you call other students sheep for believing a teacher when they said they have had a personal experience that leads them to believe X?  No.  We take in the information, consider it, and then decide for ourselves if it's right (when dealing with opinion topics) or assimilate the information into our knowledge when dealing with factual topics (such as math).

Sentinel is, and has stated, that she feels and believes a certain way in her life and would like to know what others think.  It is a very simple and direct thread that she started and I think it has been read far too much into.  The poor girl didn't come here to be criticized and put down.  She just wanted some understanding of fact or opinion from others that she might consider and decide "That actually makes sense to my situation" or "That doesn't seem right, I'll keep thinking on it and researching". 

3) Coon, directly to you, I know you may not feel that you have been insulting or harping, but you went after someone that you do not know and that you have almost no knowledge of when it comes to their beliefs, ideas, faiths, or methods.  I'm sorry to have to say it, but that was very short sighted and outright uncalled for.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this forum intended to be a haven for those with less than conventional beliefs to get together and have others to turn to for information or understanding?

What's more, you seem to not only be against the idea of religion as a whole, but also against the idea of faith specifically.  If you live your life without belief (at all) that there is something more to this world and our lives than just our sad, fragile sacks of meat wandering this rock then I believe that to be a hollow and shallow existence.  If this is the case, sir, I truly feel sorry for you.

4) Now I am an energy vampire and an empath, but the truth of it all is that the entire world of metaphysics and things outside of the normal view of reality is very new to me.  I have just begun to scratch the surface of trying to analyze and understand all of the strange things in me and what I am.  Sentinel has been my guide in this and, believe me, she knows what she's talking about.  No, she doesn't know all there is to know and this is why she seeks information and understanding from others to try and formulate her own ideas of who and what lies beneath the surface.  As for me, I am very animalistic in nature.  Territorial, dominant, I bite, I growl, I stalk... I have a strong affinity for and close connection with wolves and tigers.  I always have.  It has been suggested to me that I may have wolf and tiger totems, or that I may even be a -thrope of some kind.  Who knows?  Certainly not me, nor Sentinel.  She has only suggested that these are possibilities and that I, much like herself, research and look inside myself to decide the answers on my own.  After all, who can know you inside better than you?

I think that we all have a lot to look for inside.  No one ever knows themselves fully and there are always new things to find hiding beneath the flesh.  Be sure to keep your heart and mind open in a place like this.  We're all here to try and find ourselves through support and information from others that may be like us.  This world frowns on us enough as it is, so lets try not to frown on one another.

Take care, all of you.  I extend my thanks to those who have offered their honest intent to try and help Sentinel, because you also have helped me since I am on similar quests for understanding.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 24, 2010, 11:53:18 PM
Faith, in and of itself, is fine. Its blind faith I have a problem with, a big one.  When someone says they are a christian (for example), I immediately write them off; they are stating "I am blind to the lies, the hypocrisy, the crimes, the evils wrought not just by others of the faith, but those that the faith claims its own god has done." You yourself, watchman, even hint at being at the very least peripherally aware of some of such evils, yet you would associate yourself with it anyway.

Plain and simple.  My entire point, to say this for the third time now, was to encourage sentinel and others to NOT take things blindly, but to examine for themselves what it is they are putting faith in.  People get bent right out of shape when I state what I say and how i say it, rare it is when I see them actually stop for a minute and examine what it is I say, and moreover, WHY I might say it.  I can stand my ground all day and all night long, immobile and unflappable, because I KNOW there is no logical, rational, reasonable way for ANY christian, ANY religious person to convince me of their beliefs, because I KNOW there exists no logical, rational ,reasonable backing TO what they believe - yet they persist, blindly - and, ironically, condescendingly.

As an aside, am I the only one that catches the further irony of me getting chewed on for what I believe, because it goes against the grain of others? And yet when I find others beliefs offensive, I am  supposed to keep quiet?

Pffft, theres a laugh.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: display on September 25, 2010, 12:09:21 AM
Has anyone even asked that you open our eyes mate?
She was asking for help in finding out info nothing more , nothing less..
I for one am very happy wallowing in my own faith or ignorance as you imply...
At this point all you are doing is discrediting any future post you make... Really, would you want to hear crap from someone Holier than thou all the time?
Damn dude,
Let people find out things with out forcing Your athiest beliefs on to others... We aint out to convert you mate... Just give others the chance that you would like in return...

Life aint so black and white nor always logical... I'm not always correct, but I know I'm not alone ... Your in the same boat as the rest of us, hell look back at your own questions once and awhile ... Look at the times you were asking the same things


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 25, 2010, 12:31:45 AM
I, personally, stand by everything Watchman said. Thank you, hon.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Night Watchman on September 25, 2010, 12:41:14 AM
Coon:

I'm yet to see anyone on this thread persecute you for your beliefs.  Also, it seems to me that it's you trying to force your beliefs on us by calling us short sighted and blind for having our own beliefs that aren't your own, despite you insisting that you're trying to tell us to think for ourselves.  Can you not see the contradiction there, sir?

That said, you writing off anyone that claims Christianity as short sighted and ignorant.  As stated, I consider myself Christian because that title best defines the basics of my beliefs.  However, I don't follow any particular denomination of Christianity.  I have my own version of it, my own faith, beliefs, and the right to follow and maintain those beliefs. 

You, sir, have the right to believe as you wish.  You may choose to be ignorant and write us off for having beliefs.  But once again, please don't sit there and tell me that you are trying nothing more than to offer your beliefs.  You've done nothing but talk down to those who would decide to believe in something larger and lump us all into the same category as religious extremists, blind followers, and ignorant group mentalities. 

I've strapped no bombs to my chest.  I've not walked around the street with a shaved head asking people for donations for my church.  I've not hit you over the head with a bible and told you this is the only word of the one true god and this is the only belief I will accept.  Sorry, pal.  The bible doesn't speak of vampires, empaths, totems or many other things that I am or have directly witnessed in my life.  So please, stop with the narrow-minded, short-sighted commentary.

What's more, you say that you tried to offer your opinions and others jumped on you.  Might I recommend you consider the way you talk to people and how you come off.  You speak in accusatory and self righteous manners, and put down people who disagree.  People are going to be defensive and protective against such behavior at all times.  Please try and talk calmly and with an open mind, and you will find the results far more gentle and acceptable.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Nadia115 on September 25, 2010, 12:23:11 PM
::eye twitching:: Gods and Goddesses strike me down for this.....(It is so horribly bad I read through all of this last night and it has taken me till now to speak up)

In his horribly suck arsehole way of wording things...I see what RK is saying/asking. Though the personal crap and derogatory remarks and insulting type comments/innuendos need to be lain aside by same said poster(HINT)....It seems he has a problem with people blindly following things and when faced with past atrocities of said followed groups or when asked if/why they blindly follow  can only shrug or become angry. It also seems to be a personal search for the inner brain workings of others/mission of sorts to try to get people to back away and question and come to THEIR own ideas, feelings, interpretations and such instead of just following the herd. I think he is looking more for "I have had my own personal revalations and interpretations and follow X faith in my own way and though they have done such and such horrible things in history, it was more a fallacy of the men and women who blindly followed with out questioning and not the religion itself.". It seems he is stuck on the horrible things done by faiths in the name of the faith by followers blindly following instead of stopping and thinking things through for themselves while most times being hypocritic in their actions. IOW...he is saying gather all information but do not take it at face value. Do your own searching and thinking for what is right. To just blindly take what is said and go with it is a bad decision to make because it may really not be the case for YOU or be the right path for YOU.

I am going to go kill myself now for typing this out....


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Taris on September 25, 2010, 01:42:04 PM
Lol Nadia. Dont feel so bad. I actually understood what he meant myself. But he needs to learn his people skills a bit better I think. That or he needs to stop trying to incite a riot through his words and explain it without trying to offend. Which is appears he tries to do or simply lacks the ability to articulate properly. But ehh.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Nadia115 on September 25, 2010, 01:58:05 PM
I honestly think he has the social skills of a rabid wild man who has had no human interaction for most of their life. Not trying to be mean, just being honest that I am beginning to feel it is more horrible social interaction skills on his part which also means lacking tact when communicating with others.



Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 25, 2010, 02:09:34 PM
Well, regardless of his intentions, claiming that all Christians are responsible and stupid for the Crusades (which were less about religion and more about politics) is like blaming me, personally, for the holocaust (I'm part German) and the Salem Witch Trials (I'm related to people involved in that). I am not responsible for the actions of the people before me.

Beyond that, blaming the religion for the actions of a few idiots is like blaming a firearm because it went off. I know it's a poor analogy but blaming the object (inanimate, even) for the actions of the one wielding it is rather foolish. It's even more foolish to blame every gun owner on the planet for the actions of a few, particularly when there are many that don't behave that way. (This isn't mean to incite a discussion on firearms, just a metaphor.)

It also seems silly to hate only Christians, what with there being atrocities committed in the name of every religion out there. I would blame people for that, not religion. Politics tends to mask itself in religion, claiming to be doing something for "holy" or "righteous" reasons when really it just has ambitions and desires to that end and it wants to have a valid reason for going there and blowing the shit out whoever it is that's in their way.

Back on the original topic, I've made my decision on what I think I am, so I don't feel that I need much further input at this time. To those that were helpful in the original question, I appreciate it. To those that were helpful in the ensuing BS, I appreciate that too.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Nadia115 on September 25, 2010, 02:40:00 PM
I see your point as well and how you are viewing what he has said. Yes, we cannot blame the actions of ancestors on those living now. Though, we should learn from them so as to not repeat their mistakes in any way. It does not mean that we should worry that there will be stakes raised up surrounded by wood waiting for witches to be burned. There are other ways of persecuting that is done by those who still blindly follow and think, feel and believe the way others tell them to that do not always lead to violent ends. Some times it does, though not to such extent. Instead of mass burnings and stoning we still have the occasional headline of 'Man cites Christian views as reason for severely beating gay man who is still in critical condition.". I was told I could work for Chick-Fil-A IF I would cease wearing my pentacle. Needless to say I could use the cash, but I am not going to put myself in that sort of position either. Though you mix in his horrible social skills and ways of wording things....it makes for greater chances of reverse persecution being felt and hurt feelings. Which is where these conversations seem to be making wrong turns.

The crusades were a nasty mix as it was based on politics, but it was also backed by the church and many times things were done solely in the name of the religion. Long ago fear and scripture were used to rule the masses and the masses were not allowed to question anything. Those who did tended to come to a horrible end. Sadly it was the Church which ran things in their own ways. It is not so too much now(unless you want to count the mass of politicians trying to use Christian beliefs and such to win votes or to sway their voting), but it does happen. Hence his speaking about blindly following. I am not sure it is a personal attack per say, on you. I know I would not blame you for past actions nor any actions taken by people today in the name of religion. You have nothing to do with that. You have your own personal path, views and ways of thinking and I would only take into consideration your own reactions and actions and not those of the other people whom you share a common religion with. I do how ever find myself going to people and asking "Why would a Christian say/do/believe this and that?", but it is not with the intention of accusing that person of also being the same exact way or thinking exactly the same but more in the hopes they may be able to give some insight with never expecting them to agree or disagree with it all. It seems RK has the inability to make that distinction. At least without being told "LOOK...I do not agree with or see it the same as I follow in my own way and not blindly, but blah,blah,blah,blah." . I really do not think it is the religion, but how some fallable men and women interpret and use religion that causes problems. Which unfortunately leads to many lumping them all together which is just as wrong and hipocritical as those they are angry with.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 25, 2010, 03:04:29 PM
I'm not in any way exonerating the people that have done wrong. I'm not claiming that there aren't ignorant jerks that do things in the name of religion that the religion never would condone. I'm not taking it as an attack because I'm a historian, I know what happened. The Church was backing the crusades, but that was still being done for a political reason rather than a "holy" one. I can do some research and re-find the sources if you'd like (not a challenge, just a comment. This is what my degree is in).

He can speak about blindly following all he likes and that's fine, but when he claimed that because I'm Christian I can't do anything but that was what rubbed me the wrong way and when I became irritated. Being Christian and intelligent are far from mutually exclusive, though there are a whole lot of dumb people out there (I'm not relegating them to Christians, I've met dumb Jews, dumb Muslims, dumb Wiccans... stupid is ubiquitous) that take something and march off without ever studying it.

If you ever have questions relating to my faith and what I believe I'm more than happy to answer them in PMs (and do so without being preachy) since I am a big fan of being honest and frank with people if they are curious. And I agree with you that lumping everyone together just because they follow the same book (which is interpreted thousands of different ways and I have my own spin on it as well) is a little silly. It's like claiming every American is fat, has a bad attitude, and wants to take over the world (which is an actual accusation other countries make, I've heard it).

I'm actually and legitimately ashamed that I have to share a religion with the people involved in the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition. I don't believe that they were the slightest bit justified nor that they had the right to do what they did. It's outrageous to think that killing people in the name of a religion whose first tenant is "Thou shalt not murder" is alright. Jesus preached a message of embracing others, of hope, of love, of faith, of charity, of wisdom - not a message of "if they don't agree, kill them!" that's the old testament and I have more to say on that score as well, though I'm not going to bring that all out here and start quoting Bible passages at people when I run the high chance of getting told that I'm simply brainwashed.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Night Watchman on September 25, 2010, 04:44:31 PM
As far as RK goes, I think we are aware at an understanding as to what his message was.  It's the way he went about it and then further went on to incite trouble that is where the problem lies.

As far as religion goes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.  Everyone has their own idea of what each religion is and not everyone is a murderous or blindly ignorant follower of those religions.  To lump us all in together is erroneous.

The problem there is the group mentality that, sadly, develops in humanity.  Many people, you may find, who follow Christianity (for example) know next to nothing about the bible.  Ask them sometime.  Many know stories or things they've heard of the text in those pages, but honestly have never read the book. 

I was "raised" to be Catholic.  I was made to go to a small hole-in-the-wall church down the street from my house every Sunday and literally spend an hour or 2 every weekend sitting and listening to an elderly man mumble in Polish.  Especially on warm, sunny days when I would see my friends outside running about.  I never understood how this was supposed to make me feel closer to god.  I only resented being there.  It wasn't until much later in my life that I began truly began to understand what it was the Catholics preach, and decided that I didn't like it.  I went through a large crisis of faith in my life and spoke with several friends who were of several different denominations of Christianity, and a few who were in other religions, and over time formulated what I believe to be right and developed my own relationship and understanding with what I call god.  Aside from my childhood years, I have never blindly followed any mentality.  Not in religion, education, peer pressure, or otherwise.  My mind, heart, and soul are my own and I will decide what I think is true, righteous, and correct for me.

The point I made about some of the Islamic extremists rings true through many religions over time.  As someone else pointed out, in earlier days over in England (for example) the Church ran things.  If you didn't follow their beliefs you were executed and made example of.  Many were people who couldn't even read the bible, yet they were forced to follow a mentality and religion or die.  Racists are also a good example.  I have personally witnessed many people over the years (living near Detroit with a very culturally diverse people) who hate blacks, jewish people, arabs and otherwise.  When asked why they feel this way, they spew only the same old rhetoric and propaganda, yet have nothing to say of any actual reason as to why.  The reason is because they were either raised with these beliefs by bigot parents, or were stuck in an environment with others who were under the same mentality.  Also, have a look at gangs.  On the streets, many kids wind up in gangs because it's that or die.  Also, many areas that are poverty stricken will bring up kids that have nothing, and then are invited into a group that protect one another, have money, provisions, and popularity.  In prison, much of the time it's either join a gang or be raped daily or die.  So please keep it in perspective that many of the blind sheep over the centuries of our history have done so out of necessity or misunderstanding.

Now please, don't think me saying this means that I believe that people don't have choices.  It's true, that we always have a choice.  We are responsible for our decisions.  However when that choice is to either blindly follow or die, or when it is an option to let your family starve or be taken care of, then the choice (while yours) seems relatively clear.

I don't mean to go off on a rant or tangent here.   I just have strong feelings over the idea of personal faith vs. religion or blind faith in a group mentality. 


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 25, 2010, 05:58:47 PM
Wow, looks like my points actually struck home. Not bad.  Now, to clarify a few items --

Watchman - why call yourself something if you only pick and choose from it? That would be no different from me calling myself a  Satanist because I happen to follow SOME of their beliefs. While I did for a brief time use that, I realized that was in error. Now, I simply state the truth - my path is my own.  Also, Isnt it wonderful how easy it is to claim persecution over NOTHING?

Nadia - Why would you be so upset with the realization? I mean tis true that gaining knowledge is often a very painful thing, but still, seems you got what I was driving at without that much difficulty. Past that, you could blame both being raised in a VERY small town with a school of 60-100 students total, coupled up with my being a therian since birth; rather, I personally blame what others see as my lack of social grace (read - direct, blunt honesty) on my raccoon self more than anything. I mean, what need DOES a wild creature have of social graces? ;)

Sentinel - I have a few news flashes for you. For one, we as a modern society held Germany responsible for the crimes of the nazi party for several decades, and it still has to deal with the issues caused by those long dead; just as we hold the Muslim faith responsible for its extremists, and so on. Its part of human nature, and further, in all honesty, when people CHOOSE to be part of a faith, then they are in fact choosing to associate with and be a part of anything and everything those faiths have done, and those within the faiths have done.  This is directly because that the source material that these psychos cling to is EXACTLY the same as the moderates and milds also cling to; the same fictional god in the same fictional scriptures. Religion is a choice, always has been, always will be, and if thats what you want to choose to be part of, then you can accept the stigma and BS that comes right along with it. Its not something you NEED to have, its something you WANT to have. This differentiates from the color of ones skin, the parents one has, and so on - it is a choice.  Now, with regards to therianthropy, it could be said that, like sexual identity and preferences, one doesnt choose what one likes, but one chooses what one does WITH such likes.  And while you are partially on the right track that the church acted in political reasons and not holy ones, I again remind you that the 'holy texts' themselves state clearly that there are some to be hated, tortured and killed, and you, as a historian in particular, should bloody well be aware of that.  Again however, by avoiding such points, you demonstrate far more clearly than I could, exactly why I label you and yours blind. You show how blind you are to the evils your faith has committed, and indeed, is designed to inspire others TO commit.  That is where my problem is.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: display on September 25, 2010, 07:05:35 PM
.... I can't believe the AVA still hasn't banned him ... Ffs
I understand EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion but when it is blatant and constant abuse of members where does the line end?
When members get attacked at every turn they stop posting... Soon the word spreads about so and so and his relentless attacks on a person asking a valid question, members stop returning...

Then there are the posts about the Decline of the OVC....
This is a perfect example of why members won't return...


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Nadia115 on September 25, 2010, 07:17:30 PM
Quote
Nadia - Why would you be so upset with the realization? I mean tis true that gaining knowledge is often a very painful thing, but still, seems you got what I was driving at without that much difficulty. Past that, you could blame both being raised in a VERY small town with a school of 60-100 students total, coupled up with my being a therian since birth; rather, I personally blame what others see as my lack of social grace (read - direct, blunt honesty) on my raccoon self more than anything. I mean, what need DOES a wild creature have of social graces?

No difficulty because I wonder the same thing about people and religions and political beliefs. I ask myself and sometimes even individuals the same questions you do here. Though I do try to word things much differently than you do as I would rather find answers than make people sputter angrily and get no where really. As far as the small area, I was thinking along those lines as a possibility, especially if you are Canadian by birth. I have many friends who are Canadians and those who have lived in an area with very little population tend to have similar communication problems as you. Though I am also thinking the raccoon gives it all a lot more ooomph.

Code:
I'm not in any way exonerating the people that have done wrong. I'm not claiming that there aren't ignorant jerks that do things in the name of religion that the religion never would condone. I'm not taking it as an attack because I'm a historian, I know what happened. The Church was backing the crusades, but that was still being done for a political reason rather than a "holy" one. I can do some research and re-find the sources if you'd like (not a challenge, just a comment. This is what my degree is in).

I would never think you would exonerate anyone doing wrong to others. Though the trick here is how interpretation, even heavily twisted, can be a problem. Such as the church during the Crusades did have political reasons. A lot of it was obtaining subjects, money and property and to continue to be able to rule over. Though it was done in the name of and for God. At least that is what they told themselves and their subjects. The basis of it all in all is GREED. But they were able to interpret things and words in the bible in a way to show them to be right. We see it from time to time now with some things that happen. It may not be what Jesus preached and tried to spread, but it is how some followers interpret things. Then you also add in that fallable men wrote the bible. Which is where you will find "Suffer no witches", "If a woman wishes to hear the words of God, she is to wait until her husband returns home and he is supposed to tell her. Women were not allowed in church." and so on and so forth. Though, my favorite is " Do not eat rabbits because they have cloven hooves and chew cud.". It has been forever since I have read the bible from beginning to end. There is a good bit of allowance for smiting if I remember correctly. The difference is that YOU understand a lot of that is from beliefs of men who wrote the bible, that the basis of Jesus' teachings is peace and love for one another and so on. I would NEVER think you would be one to take everything said in the bible literally and I would think you would be one to stop and say "Hey...what the heck...that is not right and not what Jesus/God meant or would want.".  Sadly, there are many still who unlike you would very well jump on the bandwagon as long as someone said it is in the bible and God said so. It is just human nature.

Quote
Now please, don't think me saying this means that I believe that people don't have choices.  It's true, that we always have a choice.  We are responsible for our decisions.  However when that choice is to either blindly follow or die, or when it is an option to let your family starve or be taken care of, then the choice (while yours) seems relatively clear.

HA...THIS...THIS is an extremely GREAT point!!!!! A LOT of things that have had happened has happened for that VERY reason. Then add to the fact that most of the populace in older times were not educated and were illiterate. Many really did not know any better. They could not read it themselves and interpret what they were reading. They had to rely on others. So between being bullied/threatened with death/threatened with homelessness and starvation and being illiterate, horrible things happened and people were used and taken advantage of.

FINALLY...RK..loose the personal side of the argument in reference to Sentinel. I do not think she would personally stand up and yell "HELLYEAH! GO CHURCH!!!!" if they were to suddenly throw out a bunch of bible verses and decide to burn down "sinful" cities and towns and take over them. She has even stated she believes many have committed horrible crimes in the name of her chosen religion and has made it clear she does not agree with those decisions and interpretations of what those people said were reasons found in the bible.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Sentinel on September 25, 2010, 07:42:00 PM
Nadia,

No, no, he can keep on posting to me and I'll keep on ignoring him and reporting him to the mods. His inability to separate ad hominim from debate is reminiscent of myself when I was about 14 and just joining the wild world of the internet. It's kind of cute. But that doesn't mean I need to pay attention him. No worries, his personal vendetta against me won't stop me from participating.

Nadia:

Quote
I would never think you would exonerate anyone doing wrong to others. Though the trick here is how interpretation, even heavily twisted, can be a problem. Such as the church during the Crusades did have political reasons. A lot of it was obtaining subjects, money and property and to continue to be able to rule over. Though it was done in the name of and for God. At least that is what they told themselves and their subjects. The basis of it all in all is GREED.

Yes. It was human greed pure and simple. And I agree that the Bible has been HEAVILY twisted in many instances and that *is* a huge problem. You won't find any argument from me there. The fact that it was done "in the name of God" irks me because it was really done "in the name of the almighty dollar" (granted, they were doubloons or whatnot back then, but you get my point).

Quote
But they were able to interpret things and words in the bible in a way to show them to be right. We see it from time to time now with some things that happen. It may not be what Jesus preached and tried to spread, but it is how some followers interpret things. Then you also add in that fallible men wrote the bible. Which is where you will find "Suffer no witches", "If a woman wishes to hear the words of God, she is to wait until her husband returns home and he is supposed to tell her. Women were not allowed in church." and so on and so forth.

Ah, now we're getting into the fun stuff. These things that you're quoting are in there, but I believe fully that they applied to a group of people thousands of years ago. Romans was a collection of letters from Paul to various churches, giving them advice on how to proceed in handling specific problems that were explicitly relegated to those churches in that particular time period. Beyond that, I believe that the nitty gritty details... well let's be realistic: the Bible is over 1,500 years old and society has changed drastically since then.

I fully believe that man wrote the Bible, God didn't sit up there with a quill. It's an oral tradition of an ancient civilization that contains a great deal of historical merit (whether some of the "miracles" happened as stated or not, they're *stories* after all) as well as the account of a God and a bunch of rules that I think I am comfortable living my life by. Beyond that, I've had personal experiences that suggest to me that Christianity is the right path... for me. The addition of that last "for me" really encompasses my thoughts. Everyone has a different path to walk and I don't believe there is a single universal truth. There is no One "right way". There are many paths to the divine and this one simply works for me. I don't expect it to work for everyone.

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There is a good bit of allowance for smiting if I remember correctly. The difference is that YOU understand a lot of that is from beliefs of men who wrote the bible, that the basis of Jesus' teachings is peace and love for one another and so on. I would NEVER think you would be one to take everything said in the bible literally and I would think you would be one to stop and say "Hey...what the heck...that is not right and not what Jesus/God meant or would want.".  Sadly, there are many still who unlike you would very well jump on the bandwagon as long as someone said it is in the bible and God said so. It is just human nature.


There is allowance for smiting in the Old Testament. A LOT of it. However, in the New Testament one of the biggest stories was the one where Jesus saved the whore, saying "he who is without sin cast the first stone". The break off point between the Old Testament (which is full of grit, slaying, castrations, murder, rape, and pillage) and the New Testament is Jesus' teachings. This is why I am Christian, not Jewish. I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, not necessarily everything in the Old Testament.

Personally, I look at the OT (Old Testament) as the historical background that gave Jesus the place that he occupied. It is interesting, and it is important, but it is more "backstory" than it is the main focus of my faith. However, to be fair, I don't usually sit around thinking "WWJD?" I usually question whether something is morally right or not based on my own compass (which is very much aligned with the Ten Commandments as well as Jesus' teachings) which means I search for the answers from within rather than asking someone else to tell them to me.

It is a tragedy that there are so many people out there that will just blindly follow whatever they're spoon-fed from a man with a book standing behind a pulpit. But that's not something that I really agree with either. Don't get me wrong, as Night Watchman said, there is a very important community place for a church (there's a powerful psychological effect of having a group of people that you can turn to for solace in times of turmoil) but I don't think I find need for someone to tell me what to believe or preach at me every week. Personally, I spend my Sundays in the dojo training with a sword. That's my holy time.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: The Night Watchman on September 25, 2010, 07:45:08 PM
RK:

You continue to dig yourself into deeper and deeper holes.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and obviously haven't even read half of the posts on this thread.

1) Christianity (from the Greek word Xριστός, Khristos, "Christ", literally "anointed one") is a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament.

I call myself a Christian because it is the closest religion that corresponds with my beliefs.  As stated, my faith is personal and my beliefs are my own.  However, I will not go into exactly what they are since I believe you will only shoot them down and seek to insult as you have proven is your way.

2) What are you talking about when you say "persecution over nothing?"  Who here has claimed persecution?

3) You need to back off of Sentinel.  Once again, I remind that she came here only to seek information and has received nothing but condescending and trite commentary from you.

If you had bothered to read my posts, or have given any thought whatsoever to the subject of religion, then you would realize that no, religion is most assuredly not always a choice.  Not one that is so easily made anyway when it's a choice between religion or persecution, death, or remaining in poverty and turmoil.  Religion, especially in the past, was used directly as a political tool and vice versa.  The mentality often came like gangs.  Join us or die.  Join us and you will have people to take care of you, provisions, money, power, an army to fight with, etc.  Join us and we will take care of your family and you will receive riches in the afterlife.  Think about this before you continue to spew your rhetoric about blindly following.

4) As far as Sentinel goes, she knows exactly what she's talking about when it comes to religion and it's place in history.  She is also, and most notably, far more intelligent than you on the topic.  Just because someone doesn't specifically speak on one element of a subject doesn't mean that they know nothing of the topic, are ignorant of it, nor that they are blindly following a pointless and baseless mindset.

I ask you, sir, if you have your BA in history?  How many courses have you taken in college about religion, and how to break them down and analyze them from an objective perspective?  I didn't think so.

5) I've tried to remain calm and speak politely for the most part here, even though my instinct is to remove your throat for offending and attacking my mate.  But you are beginning to cross lines, dear raccoon.  You can blame your foul and abrasive attitude and manner on anything you like, but in the end you just come off as nothing more than another loudmouthed internet fool who wants to stir up trouble and gripe about how we are all blind for not seeing things your way and then tell us how closed minded we are for not thinking for ourselves.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: display on September 25, 2010, 07:56:03 PM
I would suggest we close this thread and move on with our own paths


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Nadia115 on September 25, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
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Yes. It was human greed pure and simple. And I agree that the Bible has been HEAVILY twisted in many instances and that *is* a huge problem. You won't find any argument from me there. The fact that it was done "in the name of God" irks me because it was really done "in the name of the almighty dollar" (granted, they were doubloons or whatnot back then, but you get my point).

I honestly believe as long as there are humans wandering upon the earth with SOMETHING they could gain, that will remain a problem. It just changes a little bit here and there over the years. I am not sure I have learned of any society or belief system that is not guilty of these things some where through out time. Unfortunately, that will never change no matter the culture, area or religion that is being looked at. Greed will forever remain a problem and the human race will use what ever they can to justify themselves.

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Ah, now we're getting into the fun stuff. These things that you're quoting are in there, but I believe fully that they applied to a group of people thousands of years ago. Romans was a collection of letters from Paul to various churches, giving them advice on how to proceed in handling specific problems that were explicitly relegated to those churches in that particular time period. Beyond that, I believe that the nitty gritty details... well let's be realistic: the Bible is over 1,500 years old and society has changed drastically since then.

That was my point. Though stated a little further down  ;) I did not go so much into detail, but the point is that it is a collection of thoughts and words that was also written down by man LOOOOONNNNGGGG ago. Times were very different then than they are now. So we really are agreeing on that.

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I fully believe that man wrote the Bible, God didn't sit up there with a quill. It's an oral tradition of an ancient civilization that contains a great deal of historical merit (whether some of the "miracles" happened as stated or not, they're *stories* after all) as well as the account of a God and a bunch of rules that I think I am comfortable living my life by. Beyond that, I've had personal experiences that suggest to me that Christianity is the right path... for me. The addition of that last "for me" really encompasses my thoughts. Everyone has a different path to walk and I don't believe there is a single universal truth. There is no One "right way". There are many paths to the divine and this one simply works for me. I don't expect it to work for everyone.

I am thinking such a being could just make it come into being without having to touch paper or quill lol. That is also how I view the bible. A collection of stories, a very good look into the thoughts and mindset of people from ancient times and some of their stories that have been shared. A very good history book if you know what you are sifting through and are able to see the historical goodies and the stories as separate. Though it is not the path of choice for me, I still do not throw it out the window and dismiss anyone who does believe. The rules are also very good ones to live by and interestingly there are MANY ancient cultures who have very similar rules given to them by Gods and such. Of course you will also have many differences toothat separate them from one another. To me, I feel that it makes much more sense if *I* were a Goddess to take into account each culture and set of people prior to approaching them with rules or trying to help send them on a religious path that would make sense and feel right to THEM. Such as the Native American beliefs all surround animals and nature. It would be the most logical thing for a omnipotent being to do is give many different ways of following a good life/path so that people are more likely to find something that they can relate with. Of course this is not counting insane extremists and the twisting and perversion of religions.

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I would suggest we close this thread and move on with our own paths

Pfffttt...Sentinel and I are having a very interesting conversation and I am not sure about her but I am enjoying the conversation between us. I enjoy history and religious subjects.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: RKCoon on September 25, 2010, 10:10:28 PM
Actually, Im here partly due to a concern of stagnation of the board, something to do with wanting fresh blood and willing to say controversial things and what have you. Apparently, this board tends to go dead for weeks at a time - yet i post, and lo and behold, boom, twenty posts in response. go fig.

Nadia - Yea, I suppose we canucks arent as afraid to stir the pot. My question is, why would what I say be taken personally? For that matter, what makes MY questions any less valid than someone elses?

Watchman - I know a fair bit more than you obviously want to admit.  Just because what I say has the unpleasant sting of reality to them, does not make them any less valid.  I will state that the persecution bit was me claiming it over nothing - me borrowing a page that I have seen played soooo many times, here included. "Oh they are hard on me because I am a (insert religion here)".  Easy to do, isnt it?  How bout, "Oh, they are bitching at me cause I speak my mind"?  not a lot of difference there, is there?  However, it is good to see the natural reaction be voiced from you - how your only response to words of logic is that of violence. Telling, No?  But let me counter that little aching of violence of yours with your own little words --  "Now please, don't think me saying this means that I believe that people don't have choices.  It's true, that we always have a choice.  We are responsible for our decisions.  However when that choice is to either blindly follow or die, or when it is an option to let your family starve or be taken care of, then the choice (while yours) seems relatively clear."   Well, Watchman, therein lies the rub - people make the choice to subscribe to that which has worked tirelessly for ten thousand years as a whole to keep humanity back, subvert it, control it, enslave it, and me, well, I choose to hold peoples feet in the fire for their choices.   The fact that you , quote, "tried to remain calm and speak politely for the most part here, even though my instinct is to remove your throat for offending and attacking my mate", when I have done no more than use words on an electronic screen, proves resoundingly the fatal flaws in your faith, showing how you are no different at your core than those muslim extremists screaming holy jihad on cartoonists for making their own opinions clear.  Well, Up Thine, some of us wont be cowed in fear by the likes of your ilk.


Title: Re: Therianthropy?
Post by: Merticus on September 25, 2010, 11:03:02 PM
I'm at a coffee house at the moment trying to enjoy my Saturday night - not putting up with the drama.  Locking thread.