Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]

The following is a question that was posed for group discussion at TWILIGHT II in Atlanta, GA this past March 2008.  I'd like to continue the discussion here on the AVA forum to gather everyone's opinion and input on the particular subject.  Please answer the question (all parts) below and offer your perspective!


Vampires; Hierarchies & Elders?

Discussion:  What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?  What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?

 I do believe that elders are those of our kind that have been here on this world the longest. That doesn't necessarily mean just by age, but also through experience. I believe that the title is like a medal of recognition to show others that are just coming up who to go to for answers, and who they should respect because of the paths they have already went down. There is always a good and a bad to certain things, but I think that it would be based on the particular individual. If someone with a lot of experience and has been awakened for a long time decides to be generous and help any of us in need then it can be a good thing because we can learn from them, but if they choose to shun the newly awakened seeing them as lower class simply because of their time and experience then it could create many problems. I think it should be a certain form of order because Elders have earned their status, and they can guide through the transition of a newly awakened. If some feel they shouldn't be approached directly it could be that they have too many pressing matters to be side tracked and thrown off. It's like a military chain of command, it's not to degrade any one, but to insure that we know what status we should work towards, and what status to look to for help and guidance. Whether they have the label or not does not matter, there will still be those of us that have been here longer and that has more experience than others, and sooner or later it will be recognized, why not just put it out up front instead of wondering who to go to. The only question from there is, how and who decides what Elder status is...

I agree with TAYLOR on this subject. It is a very interesting topic to discuss.

Personally I try to guide and help everyone that comes to me. I don't like the term 'elder' and I cringe every time someone calls me it, as there's this whole mindset that seems to go with it. I've had people take on this weird reverence, like I'm some revered personage. And that just rubs me wrong. We just want to be treated as normal people, not like the pope.

So I can see where many people would avoid stepping up to the term elder. We're just people like everyone else, and while we want respect, everyone deserves that too. We tend to be leaders in the communities, but at the same time, we need to listen to others' ideas as well.

I do think that those with great experience and knowledge should be available, but there has to be a nice balance for some peace and quiet as well. For example, I don't mind helping someone, but when 20 people flood me, it gets to be too much. So I can understand the desire to not be available all the time.

So I suppose after all this rambled thought on the subject, my answer is Yes we need leaders to step up to the plate. And they need to be available as much as they are willing to share their time. And that time allotted needs to be respected and appreciated by the communities.

This is a subject I normally shy away from. Lately it gets old after a while. Some of you in here know me and some don't. I haven't been too active in here lately, for personal reasons. My local community here, asked me to step up as an elder and I did. 9 months went by and I was asked to step up as primus, and I did. Unfortunately a lot of roll playing guidelines had become mixed in to our community. I tried my best to set things straight, but with no luck. And after weeks of meetings we decided to close our community down. I, myself, only talk with my vampire friends on line now. I don't care much for people here lately.

Let me get to the point as far as Elders. Yes they are needed. And an Elder should be someone that has not only the knowledge and ability to be in a place of leadership, but also be able to deal with the mental stress of being in such a position of leadership.

Without elders a community can go astray and become lost and blur in with wannabe and rollplayers just like my community did.

I have to agree with Taylor in a lot of what he says but with some minor modifications. One of the things that makes an "elder" or an "ancient" or and "old one" is not just experiences in this current lifetime but in the past ones as well. The longer the soul has been "vampire" or whatever you need an "elder" for the more experience that can be called from. For example I have been a "vampire" for well over ten thousand years. (If you wish to know why I be the old just ask me in a personal message please.) But because of my relatively "young and inexperienced vessel, body, or whatever you call it" I am not considered an "elder". So "elder" is just a term. Humans insist on naming everything as it were. We as "vampires" and others in the community should not have to hold to the prescribed tenets of the human societies. At least that is my opinion.

I completely agree.

As long as you can demonstrate that you are equal in power, skill and capabilities to other "Elders" in the energy-working & vampire communities then you should be fine.

Any time someone wants a demo from me, just IM me and ask.

-Arcane
www.HouseofAncients.com

Meh...good points made....i cant imagine that it would really benefit anyone so much to have elders to go to if everyone shares what they know with eachother....kinda like on these forums....we exchange ideas and ask each other for technique tips....and as such benefit...

....that and i would hate to be called old so early in the game.....lol...this cycle for me isn't too far in....lets not poke fun at how many times some of us have come back...lol

Yes yes because some of us have come back many times... and not necessarily by choice either......... :)

Well, an elder is a person that is older than most of the vampires in the community. He has to share the knowledge with the community and teach the awakened in the vampire arts.

This is the definition of an elder as I recall it. I think if the community is solid and strong, and has the people that can share the knowledge with everyone else, there is no need of an elder. Besides the recognition of someone's work is inside. There is no need for somebody to tell us if what we did is good or bad. Within the community we must promote and acknowledge the work that has been done within the community. And acknowledge the people who have done it.

Perhaps, however in that context many of us are elders.....some of us go back ages....and i would say everyone here that has been around that long has something they've specialised in, and can teach the masses if proper...myself, I'm strongest in astral combat....so me teaching what I'm best at would be promoting war....not something that is exactly beneficial....not to mention that i wouldn't want some of my more arcane techniques in the hands of any random person....there are many, both vampire and otherwise, that would use that data to hunt us....its annoying enough anyways to bother fighting the imps and malevolent spirits that are attracted to my energy.....its somewhat like how we have the calling or beacon or w/e u wanna call it.....only to demons its not so much "bright and shiny = possible friend" as it is "bright and shiny = someone to mess with and try to topple" ....but....its good to have target practice, no?

Greetings from Trilliums Halo:

What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community? 
*****Yes for sure.  It is one who all can feel safe to go to with questions for learning and advice.  An additional function would be resolution of disputes.  Not to popular but sometimes necessary.
 
In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?
*******Mutual respect, and a long line of wise impartial decision making.
   
Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?
*******Anyone can have a title but it doesn't mean you respect the person or their opinion.  Is the Title granted or usurped ?

What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?
***Someone should have the authority to lead by conscent to set a path and direction for the future.  We set sail for the futre now by pre-planing and not by putting out fires.   A leader has to provide for the safety and security of the flock.   Sometimes  the title goes straight to a persons head and they are no longer friends but a boss that finds fault.  Freindship ends and Yes people become their new supporters.  I have met some great people who have no idea of how to lead or set the example for others.   Self serving aggrandizement ?

Brian ..................................V""V..............
*******************************************

 Real elders are to be especially commended and respected for all the immense work they do. And that's why this post is a little emotional about the people whom I feel are poser elders.


What is an “elder” and do we need elders in the community?   
Right now, an elder is any bozo that's active in the community for a significant period of time. They don't have to be actually doing anything but blabbing their mouth online and calling it "helping people awaken!" And if they sit on their asses long enough in front of the computer, they'll get called an elder. This needs to be fixed. From what I hear from REALLY old people (like senior discount vampires) this is not the way it used to be and the way it used to be sounds really nice.

In the absence of calling someone an “elder” do we have a way to acknowledge or recognizing one’s contributions or accomplishments within the community?   
No, but that sounds fantastic. I do think that those bozos are generally really nice, cool, people, but not elders. And it would be nice to have a medium level. For people who are not elders "yet" elders in waiting, I suppose. I also think (and these positions might be shared by the same person) that real elders need help. I have known an elder that went through a lot and because of this he neglected his duties as an elder. I think that if he had a, I dunno, personal assistant of sorts, that situation might have gone over smoother and been easier to handle for him. True elders do SO much for us!

Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place? 
Yes. When I was young and naive (before you say it! Now, I'm young and guillable.), I got into a lot of bad situations because of "elders." I am constantly amazed at the stupid shit I did as a little girl. Much of it, though, was done because I am a very hierarchal person. I fall into line. I am not a leader, I'm a doer. And that means that "elders" get to use me very readily for their little games. How to fix this though? I think the best way would be to follow more of The Old Way where the elders actually did shit, where as now there's like what, a handful that actually do anything. I think Elder should be a TITLE. Like.... official. Other elders nominate you, you accept, and there's a vote among elders. Elders have to meet at meetings. If an elder is to be an elder, he needs to do crap and keep in touch with people. If you're not an elder, but everyone knows you in the community, then that is exactly what you are. You're that guy that everyone knows, but stop calling yourself an elder because you don't communicate with other elders, maybe you're so young you have a hot head or are flaking in and out of the community and being figment-y. You can be awesome and helpful to elders without being an elder. I think people really want the title and it's so easy to convince people you have it (because there's so wany little 14 year olds) that you get screwed up guys with little girls like I was.

What are the positive and negative influences from the courtly, hierarchical, and pseudo-feudalistic community as compared to the rest of the vampire community?
First, I'd like to point out that "pseudo-feudalistic" is a really horrid word for this situation at this time, because our situations as members of the community does not leave us stuck. We can rise in status. I think anyone can be an elder is they work for it. If they become a good person (which is what you should be trying to do in like anyway, really) and then choose to direct your energy towards the community, you can be an elder. I think right now, people view being an elder as a rite of passage. Like... I'm gonna get and I'll become an elder and then I'll die. Like that's somewhere mixed in with marriage and kids. But it's not. Being an elder is a lot of work. And one should think... "Do I have the time for that?" It's a lot of money with gas and meals during meetings and other things... one should think, "Do I have the money for that?" It's a lot of drama. It's the elder that large (read: most dramatic) conflicts are brought to to be resolved. One should think, "Do I have the patience for this?" I mean, really... Do you really want to be an elder?

I can't compare the courtly community so well as the rest of the vampire community, but I can say that it works well in other organizations I've been in. As of now, the general vampire community just randomly decides (not elects, that implies that there's intent) who's an elder and then when there's a conflict they look to him and he goes, "Huh? Me?" And then the community thinks, "Of course you. You're a fucking elder!" Where as if there were established elders who knew they were elders and knew to get to work, they would. Hopefully, jeeze.

I guess the end of that is that we need more elders like Merticus who get off their asses do stuff, and communicate with other elders and the community on many different theatres.

I have the strangest urge to start referring to any self-titled elder as "Papa Smurf"... Hmmmm...

---Mal
(Not an Elder, but occasionally referred to as elderly and would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those darn kids !)

meh....papa smurf.....reminds me of a very bad joke about smurfs....(not dirty...just cruel)...what color does a smurf turn when you choke em?....(thats actually caused a very long debate....that somehow ended with me looking into a medical textbook....)

but.....i tend to stray from the hierarchical structures, over time some people will rise to the top....others will be acknowledged as filth....etc....its just a matter of the individual who enters the forum to watch the conversations and figure out who is who and what they do....do you think anyone here would really come to me for say....help with a blessing? lol
....a banishing or other help dealing with annoying, destructive or downright malevolent beings, however....i have been asked from time to time to help there....
*disclaimer* my statement is in no way an advertisement. in no way do i intend, or desire, to be looked at like an "elder"....you whippersnappers....=p

....seriously tho, i kinda agree with the whole "do i have the time, patience and resources for all this" internal debate....i rather not be dragged out of my cave every tuesday to sit around a bonfire with other old farts to play bingo and discuss how the world is coming to an end again....=p

well a community with no leaders is not a community it's just a choatic union of people there would be no black veil and no community rules its not about just being an elder or a primus but as tylor said they have more experience and more ability to find donors and organize the whole community

Hmm... Why not Mentors? It doesn't seem to have the same attached stigma.

As far as hierarchies go people repond to those who have spiritual authority already. Every group forms its own hierarchy naturally.

We also already know who the leaders are, despite if we are willing to formally recognize them. Leaders also recognize others with that same quality, even if they do not share common interests. When we meet somone who is a leader there is no doubt about their status.

Sometimes its the formal recognition of a leader that creates discord and eventual fracturing of a group, nation, people as others will always have preferences and their own followings.  If a group becomes too large it cannot adequately reflect the feelings of the people it represents, thus it becomes necessary to have a divergence.

Well said...

However, in what otherwise seems a flourish of insanity on my part,

"A rose by any other name, would smell as sweet"

(a leaders by any other names, would cause factions all the same)

I am never too good at stating a huge opinion such as this, but I do know that I have my own bit of opinion for something like this.
I know without a group or people, even a small group of people, usually the others will sink terribly or everyone will fall into pieces so easily if you pull it away out of the no where; you always see it in the history books or on the History channel, where a small group (four or five or a few) of people pull away or divide and suddenly others either do part or do neither and suddenly everything starts to divide in two and become into chaos(to notice), yet when there is always one or two or so few people (than  just a "group") in higher grounds than the others, a neutral ground is always met and no one splits as easily, causing everyone to remain the same, the same differences, same choices, as what the dictionary calls, "calm." Without Hierarchies & Elders, everything will quickly become out of place, fall apart, because there will always be one or two people who will always try to grab for the higher grounds -at least that is always what happens in history books from the past, even in this time, you always see it in the newspapers, where one company over-throws another to remain huge for all of "their" customers; churches do the same, though it is not always intentional:  If you watch from afar for a long time and something seems odd and suddenly one church moves into another church and it's combined into a newer church of some kind, you just watch everyone attending at how the commotion starts, rises, then falls, some leave, and usually the majority stays because the same people who are the administrators stay.
So, without Elders or Hierarchies or Administrators everyone would live on their own accords, and eventually you will get those certain individuals who will want Elders/Hierarchies/Administrators, even if it means reflection.

this is an intrestinf thread and it has been covered a little bit back on my own forum

Firstly id like to qoute the one man i would consider my greatest teacher and would still call my elder. his name is Stefan


And then to qoute myself and my views on this subject.


i still stand to these thoughts today, thats why i belive i will never been an elder i dont have the strength to take up the trust of so many others and guide them to a better tommorrow. i just know i could'nt do it and i am happily reassured that though i dont have the mental constitution and caring heart required for this sort of role, there are others out there that do. do we need elders? yes i think so because without leadership and guidence any communitie will just stagnate and drift apart.

saddly its true that there are alot of.. unscrupulous individuals out there claiming to be elders and leaders of our communitie, greedy vain creatures who do more harm than good, leading the young astray and creating divisions amoungst the whole communitie (for example the whole sangs are just weak or roleplayers and psi's are the only true vampire, that really annoyed me) and supprisingly they are also the more popular "elders" with their books and their courts and their silly tests and rituals.

but despite all that i belive that we do need those  elders who are truly worthy of the name so that future generations will have teachers and guides in the times to come.

I think everyone should be looked upon with value, not because they are an 'elder'. Personally, I don't really care for such names, and some of the 'elders' I've heard about I would never want to meet mainly because I do not like the energy vibes I get from them...very sketchy to say the least. Secondly, I am not into 'covens', and a pecking order really doesn't help my dislike for them. When you label someone like that, in a sense it can take a lot away...sometimes add, but it's best to know a person just by their name.

Are there people I look up to? Yes, but that doesn't mean I worship them. I can see the point in all of this and respecting your elders, but at the same time just remember to respect everyone in general. I don't believe in sucking up to 'elders' (vampire community or not) but just being yourself and stating your mind (in the appropriate manner of course).  I also believe that some elders I've seen can be way to full of themselves, but that's like any human being some people just try to attract too much of the wrong power to themselves.

Still sticking by my "papa smurf" comment (and still wondering what color a smurf turns if you choke it... purple?) ...

Did want to make another random observation on this topic though:

Like the term 'vampire' itself, the term 'elder' is taken from a completely different context and has several layers of meanings, depending on its usage.  In some context it seems to say 'old'. In others 'respectable'. When you apply it to vampirism it becomes even more confused as it is often used in vampire fiction.

Should there be vampires that are respectable? of course
Should there be an often-self appointed title that any moron can claim in an attempt to get the respect they may not otherwise have? of course not

Is there a happy medium? not that I've ever been able to discern

Titles in the community are all too much like titles in corporate america: the term President sounds great unless people realize you're the one and only employee in value $0 value limited liability company you started with your friends just after high school.

---Mal

Hello. Hmm. How many truths can we handle?? ... lol ... I looked at this forum simply because I first noticed I was unlike everyone I knew about 3 or so decades ago... long before internet or computers for that matter. Anyway I had convinced myself that due to my Catholic upbringing and severe childhood that I was simply in the protection of Angels when stuff would happen. By stuff I mean some cool (almost impossible for a needle to pentrate my skin) or amazing strength; some things were strange -and only explainable by guardian angels.  Anyway, due to changing physical conditioning over the past decade I have had to face that I cannot simply rely on prayer - My needs simply must be filled. I have finally given in and started to allow myself to 'feed' off the energy of a select few again. I have noticed immediate benefits to my health and a settling of the soul - sort of... The hardest part of who I am is the conflict with my religious beliefs.  So, if anyone has any questions on what kind of cool stuff you could experience or some of the scary stuff to watch for.. feel free to ask. I will be the first to tell you - I am NOT an 'elder' - I have simply been who I am for almost 1/2 a century if that counts for anything. ;)

It is not just us vampires that have this trait in our society.

The "Elder" is tribal status where no government is currently in place. Such as our Native Americans here in the States back in the day. Even in our own families, it is normal for a head of family to be selected, it is natural for that head to choose an heir. We may not go and call them by their title, but they are written in the inheritance, it is an unspoken truth.

But that just defines who an elder is. What is an Elder exactly? As you could expect, I have some measure of egoism inside when I look upon myself and ask that question, just as every single one of us here does. We look at that and choose which path to walk. The true elder is our subconscious, our inner and higher selves, and in many ways our true selves. This is what it means to be human and evolve as an animal in the material world. What else is there?

But therein lies a problem. If we are truly the only ones who can judge ourselves on what we stand for and symbolize, then what are the qualities in which the community accepts that a person is an elder or not?

This is not the only vampire forum on the internet. Even on the VC forum you found people in disagreement and that is how it should be. A true elder does not give what they know as facts, they simply give light to paths that are already there. Above all things, a good elder knows when to step back and make room for growth and opportunities for others.

It is when we choose not to do that that the enemy comes banging at our gates. That is history, that's exactly what that is. That arrogance is why Rome was obliterated in all but name, and when you really look back at history it doesn't even have that anymore.

The term "elder" was not coined by us. We did not design that term, for the record.

The group I am involved with has many Elders and statuses of that nature.  The only difference is that we have certain practices that we learn and the Elders are those who have mastered and can teach these practices.

         :o    elders:  These are certain members of a community who have established themselves as just & responsible leaders..  These are people who helped establish local communities, who organize havens, & who work to cooridinate the networking of the scene. 

            ::)  While their word does not have to be law they should nevertheless be respected.  They have greater experience than many others, & usually greater wisdom.  Seek these elders out to settle your disputes, to give you guidance & instruction, & to help you establish yourself in the local area.  Appreciate the elders for all their dedication, the community would not exist as it does now.

               :D  We do not have elders on this site, but to me the ones we look to like Merticus, Maloryn, etc as for me they have that respect.  Without them the site would not exist & we would be out of one of the best forums that I know of..  Thanks for everything that everyone does to keep us informed, fot hearing the same question over & over again, but most of all for being their to answer a question even like Merticus when he was away & I didn't know..Thanks for telling the truth even if we don't want to hear it.  Okay I will stop now.

I'm so sorry, but none of you can be elders until you are 65.  That's when you get to draw social security, so that's the magical line drawn in the sand.  :) 

The quote "Elder has the responsibility to lead by example and to teach others; an Elder is supposed to be there to protect the community and it's members and help build it; an Elder is supposed to be there to care for the members of the House (and beyond), to help heal wounds, teach and care. It is a job, not a title; it does not give you the ability to lord and it does not give you the excuse to stand by and watch. Eldership is a 24/7 job; it is likened unto being a parent. It is not a badge to be flashed, but to be a badge of honor; to be upheld and respected but most importantly, to be earned and not bestowed." is without a doubt the most well  written statement on what a leader is.

The ones who come before us, Merticus, Michelle Belanger, Sanguinarius, Father Sebastiaan, Madame Webb, Madame X, etc. have been around for a very long time and by their actions and efforts for others, stepping up to the plate when people in the community need a spokesperson, a leader to ask for advice, community builder, and more. Age is not always a requirement, not always time put in. I was addressed as an Elder once and to my surprise, Michelle and Don Henrie replied, "You got off your *ss and DID something for others, writting books, going on the radio." Having been in the community for only five years and not overly heavy online I was even more humbled when I was nominated to be a member of the VVC.

 I will always strive to do my best to speak out publiclly for everyone I possibly can  as fair and open as I can, but will not speak for everyone flat out. No one has that right.

I only wish to comment on a portion of this topic for now, and the question was, "Does it hurt newcomers to the community when “elders” or “pillars” avoid official recognition, leaving unscrupulous individuals to adopt titles in their place?" My answer to this is no, it does not. Just because someone avoids a title doesnt mean they avoid the duties, in secret or in plain sight. If I didnt want to be called or even seen as a Vampire it doesnt mean that I suddenly do not do, what I always have. If were talking about stepping down and letting others step in, then yes is my answer. But that is an individuals responsibility and decision.

T____T I'm too young to get it at 65 chances are when I'm that age it will be all gone. T_____T (<- emo moment)

I think there are people that I admire like when I'm on the computer I love listening to Dawkins on youtube (as if I needed proof of my dorkdom) while you can gain knowledge from other people part of everything is looking at the evidence yourself. Your pretty useless in a debate about evolution if you don't understand radioactive dating or homologous structures. The worry if you give anyone power over your thought is that you'll stop thinking all together and just believe what you are told. That's what I advise people against when they wish to have a hierarchy, it's ok to have people you respect however they are not gods and to believe what they say you have to understand it from every angel first. This is why for people who are Atheist they do a lot of research into other faiths on their own, so that they know the questions that people will ask them and they are coming from a knowledge based off evidence not just spiting the company line. (The last bit is for an example)

You know, I can accept being called a pillar in the psi or vamp community, but I refuse to be called an elder.  I'm only 37 ffs.
The fact that I know full well where that term came from to begin with only makes it more irritating.  Between that and the Black Veil, I want to get out my 10-sided dice again.

It just means you've been a loudmouth in the community for a very long time, and you have probably started some sites or forums and written stuff.  That's pretty much all it takes.

Does it do harm when such folks step back and let nimrods who don't have a clue proclaim themselves to be authorities?  Of course it does.  But we don't have a responsibility to the community unless we CHOOSE to take on that responsibility.  This is all volunteer work, nobody's paying us for it.

I wouldnt mind being called an elder.  Its a compliment to be looked at as wise and informative to someone who is unsure of themselves.

"Elder" just means I'm old, it doesn't imply anything about wise.  lol...

Term first cropped up after Vampire: The Masquerade started using it.  Coincidence?  I think not.  At least it hasn't leached over into the psi community, and therians prefer the more whimsical 'greymuzzle'.

Maybe if you think past your nose you would see that someone who has lived longer could possibly be more wise than a younger being.  How did you learn things?? On your own or did you have parents and guardians that helped you learn??  Think about it.

The keyword there is "COULD".  They COULD be more wise.  On the other hand, they COULD not be, too.  What does that have to do with me?  I'm 37.  The majority of so-called elders in the community are under age 50.  They might be elder if you're a kid, but they aren't elder by the standards of any OTHER society.  As has just been pointed out, this term is being used to refer to people who haven't even been in the community for 5 years, and are in their 20s.  It's absurd and silly.

Well if they are in their 20's then no they are not your "elders".  If you are 37.  But does someone have to be "100" to be considered wise.  Good luck with that cause current life expectancy doesnt even go to 80 so I guess we are all dumb and blind wondering through the world with no clue to what we have and want. 

My Dad was 72 when he died and I would have came to him with any problem because he was my elder and more wise about things than anyone else I knew.  Your definition of elders and mine are definitely too different to even meet in the middle. 

By the way Im 36. 

Yes, I honestly can't make heads or tails of yours.

I said I think it's ridiculous to call someone an elder just because they do a lot of work in the OVC.  They're not  necessarily elder, and they're not necessarily wise.  The term came from a roleplaying game, it's a complete affectation, and I don't see any good in it.

You countered with how older people could be wise, and old people like your grandfather were great counselors.  What on earth does that have to do with anything?

You know I know old people who are not wise and young people who in there teens you'd swear you were talking to an adult. To me being wise dose not equal to age, it equals to what you have learned despite how much time you've had here.

Personally for me to respect someone they have to prove that they are worthy of respect, everyone starts at 0. That I think is a position that everyone should take. That way you aren't being used or harmed by someone who only has convinced a few other people that they are worth it. 

Mmm though question what is the place of an elder.
It really depends on the systems in place, an elder ought to be a wise person capable to advice and guide. But for me an elder also has to be free to make their own choices.

There are within the community different forms of how things are done. Some use a very order-shaped like system. With ranks and functions.. a great way to teach specific things indeed. But also can lead to abuse as has happened before. I am not sure if an elder even would have to be part of this. An elder in a way must be able to transcent the structured order to fullfill his/her most capabilities.

Remember how in the business world there are different kind of functional supports. There might be a boss that has to ensure work is done but also another that has to ensure that everybody is well trained. An elder stuck in a job in an order based system might indeed be "safer" as it is obvious why and where. But also restrict his/her full abilities to aid others.

In the end it all seems to depends on variations how we perceive things. As one might be wise.. but dead wrong as the same time on certain topics. And some elders "rust" so to say getting stuck in a certain point of their life. Wise is then one who knows when to pull back from the community. True wisdom like the flame burning is not something easy to define.

Now about structures, my feelings about that is that yes sometimes it aids. Sometimes it is very useful to have a structure but it not always is perfect. Sometimes again structures in their nature restrict to, for instance of you have to tell one of the leaders of a group that another member did something terrible! In a to structures system it might take 7-8 layers of "leaders" to reach said leader. And what if there is a reason why things go wrong lets say corruption. If there is no way to contact the right leader...

But the other extreme is a chaotic "we are all equal" system with not much to work with. Hardly a group indeed more a herd of cats! It can work as long as one understands that the rules are all made as things go on. Like cats deal with issues ;)

Both Order in Extreme and Chaos in Extreme are troublesome routes to go. One needs to seek a balance, of course there are always control freaks. And if you are stuck in an order structure ran by an control freak you might just as well be a chess piece on a board.

Whatever path you follow whatever you do retain your own self and know when you are abused.

I think too many people attach the title "Elder" to themselves to claim recognition!
To be a true elder takes many years usually a person is old by the time they have earned that title and have perfect balance to be able to guide people in their life path and yet have no prejudice and open minded with much understanding of the world around them.
Many old souls such as I still can not use the term "Elder" because this is a whole new lifetime and although I am 52 in this lifetime yet my soul,and true self is much older,I am still 52 in this lifetime!
I may be wise beyond this lifetime so a "Wise one" would be a more appropriate term for many such as myself.
People need to detach themselves from the whole "Elder" thing,it seems meaningless when used like its a common every day privilege to use.

I prefer the very stoic term of:

Smartypants

Smartypants Paindancer.. gee dosnt that have a nice ring to it?

Seriously, I have never found the practice of titles to be one I understood or prescribed to.  I would like to think that people generally take what I have to say seriously here because of the historic content of my posts, not a silly title.  I refuse to take the title of Master in the BDSM community as well.  Same principle.

Look at martial arts.  I have been practicing.. for longer than I want to admit.  When people ask my what color my belt is.. I usually say I am still learning and they respond white.  Thats fine with me.  I am always learning.  Title means little if anything.

The name fits you well Pain. Maybe title may not be needed, but leadership, definately.  Young Vampires need people to turn to, to go to, especially after awakening, to know what is happening to them and to find their way.  Also, in this constant growing fad of Twilight and True Blood, we need people who will establish some kind of order and discretion in who is allowed in and who may stay.

Hmmm.. mabye I will let you call me Lord Smartypants Paindancer.. but just you because you are special!

Slippery slope you describe there Sin.  What you are describing is a tightly controlled coven or even a cult.  Certainly some self policing is needed, and I think there are members who do that.

I agree though it's easy to tell the twilight obsessed and people who really have the vamp condition. (True blood doesn't count because of all the hot people and lack of clothing >.> so being an Eric Northman fangirl is perfectly ok. >.> Seriously look at his bum. XD) lol back to the topic XD

I think it's dangerous to have any sort of cult like appearance because as Manson showed us it's really easy to control people, so we really should be advocating against such things, and help to break apart anything that we see as suspicious. (that last bit goes for everyone) That's why really it's ok to have a community however it should be stressed that no one should tell you what to do. The whole power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's why things like hierarchies make me instantly suspicious.

I was raised more Native American than white being part Aztec, Mayan and Cherokee. Elder is a term some what used for as long as humans have been on earth. Dikaneisdi is the closest I can come to the Tslagi/Cherokee word for it. Though I have to admit some self appointed "elders" are more like dukshanee no matter what society you are talking about. Which is getting away from what I was going to say really. Elder has absolutely nothing to do with age unless you are saying it to mean an elderly person. In Tslagi an elderly man (as in age wise) would be called udvsonvhi and an elderly woman(again age wise) would be called agayvlige .As far as position with in a community it is a title that has to be earned through learning and then teaching and guiding. It is someone who has more knowledge on something than you that you can go to for information and guidance. It is also someone who does not allow ego to get in their way and is willing to do a LOT of listening and consideration before saying something most times. It is someone that understands that no matter how much they know, there is still a LOT to be learned and that if you listen to those who you are an elder to and think on what they say, you can even learn something from them. It is not a title to be taken so one can beat their chest and proclaim to be better than everyone else. There is a balance that must be kept along with the willingness to keep learning for the good of others, to keep helping for the good of others and to be ready to lead others for the good of the whole. Age of a soul or body does not have anything to do with this. I have a cousin who is about 7 years younger than I am and being that she has been raised Lakota (cousin by marriage) and has grown up on Rosebud, I would consider her an elder in everything Lakota. My oldest daughter who has been raised the same way I was who is only 16 could be considered and elder by someone in their 30's when it comes to what she knows and what she can teach. I only see a problem in this when you have pretenders who step up thinking it means power and they lead people the wrong way or those who allow their ego to get in the way of what it really means to be an elder. As far as being an elder having to do with roll playing games and coming from roll playing games...not unless the Native Americans were playing dungeons and dragons before Columbus ever got lost and tripped across this land.

There is a Druid organization online that has been around for years and has millions of well educated people that my friend is an administrator of.  It is his job to find people who are not taking things seriously or causing problems iin the forum, going to the other administrators and confirming the booting, then he deletes them.  we need more rules, and a better system if we want to thrive.  you may look at the system if you want.  Just look for the ADF.

Ya know, I would imagine one could be called an 'elder', simply for surviving a decade of BS and crap that goes on in these parts.  That has about as much relevance as anything.

As a forum yes we do need people to stop the trolls but that is different then going around telling people what they are and what they aren't. Like with me I know that I'm a Maenad, through wine I have been given the gift of wines life. However I am also an Atheist, which means that I require proof of something before I believe it. It also means that I love Dionysus but it's the Dionysus in me that connects me to his characters identity. So in some respects I am also Dionysus in the same way that someone who is detective and loves Sherlock Holmes and became a detective because they were inspired by Sherlock Holmes is Sherlock Holmes. I still don't believe in gods but since I think people make gods up from human and nature experience you can embrace the character but still be an Atheist. This makes Dionysus part of my human identity. I do some things that modern Maenad's do and others that I myself do. However I wouldn't tell another Maenad that they aren't a true Maenad because they don't do what I do. In fact some of what I do works for me and I'd openly tell people not to do it because it might be dangerous for them. The last thing I'd want is someone getting a serious skin infection because they wanted to be like me. If they don't need wine the same way I need wine I'm not who I am to be special it's because I am human. There I think lies my major issue with this group mentality that your in or your out. That is a dangerous and slippery slope to go down and leads to people abusing the "power" that they have. With what Nadia115 I agree partly that people who deserve respect are ones that don't go around obsessed with power. However knowing peoples nature the abuse of power is something that doesn't justify the danger of having a titled system. If you respect someone that's cool, and yes you should go to them and learn all you can. However never give anyone power over you, especially absolute power. I know that's a bit of the worst case scenario however I wouldn't be the type of person to build a house in tornado alley without a storm shelter. ;)  

it is not telling people what they are, its just rules.  this is a privelage, if you act accordingly, youre fine, but cause problems and we dont need you. we dont need the negativity.

Maenad, I agree there is that danger. It really is a nasty little part of human nature to grab up all the power they can. I would think though that a community as a whole would take that from them. Unless of course they are charismatic enough to gain a following which could split us up as has happened through out history in many societies. The trick would be knowing that an elder may know a lot, but another elder may know just as much. That even elders some what have their preferences. So it is better to go to more than one elder. Take what you have learned form each and see what you get. Meanwhile not allowing yourself to actually worship them or think them to be the know all of everything and no one else could compare. My great grandmother is one example of what I am talking about. Wonderful elder and if you were smooth, you could get her to talk about our Aztec and Mayan ancestors and family members. You just had to NOT mention the words Aztec, Mayan or Indian. If you did she would realize what information she was giving out, clam up and scream she is a Mexican and no one can prove otherwise and try and enslave her, abuse her or put her on some government reservation and then would clam up for hours. She knew so many things it was amazing and she would share them...as long as she did not think that you were doing so while seeing her as being Indian. She still lived with that sort of fear until she passed. Serphents were extremely powerful beings. So she melded that with the whip snakes she lived around in the Bayou. Saying that they would grab the end of their tail and roll around and what ever they touched would die.  I would of course tell her "Oh wow! That is very scary...don't worry...I'll keep my eyes open for them while I am outside." I know that is not real, but I also knew she knew her herbs and cures for many things. So I would get her to talk about that and a little bit of history and stories too. She knew a lot from their perspectives and culture that I wanted to hold on to. She could teach a lot, but you would have to muddle through other things such as the whip snake thing. For other bits of information I needed to know such as tracking, I went to my Cherokee uncle who is an elder. If I wanted to learn how to make a knife from obsidian, I would ask him. Weaving I would ask my Cherokee aunt. So on and so forth. Basically I respect them all, I see them as my elders I can learn from, but I also know things that may counter some of the information that comes up, whip tail snake, and then I go on about my way and sort through it all. I don't worship them and they have no power over me. There really has to be a balance all around.

Nadia115 I totally agree with you. Like I would have loved to be able to talk and still would love to be able to talk to someone like me, as a way to pool information. It's hard because my mom wigs a bit about me needing wine because her dad had drinking issues. However I'm not genetically related to her dad, and he died when I was too young to remember him taking out the nature and nurture factors completely. I really wish there was someone like me, who gets it, it would make things a bit easier because then I wouldn't have to justify myself all the time. Wine is my blood and without it I start to get sick (like cold sick) and I do need it. It's just hard when other people because of media just don't get it, I needs it's form of energy to be ok. It just would be good to not feel so isolated on it. So from that sense I really get and understand why it's good to have people to go to. That's why it's not good to isolate yourself as a group so that people feel free to go to whoever they want to and it would also help to negate the people who want the power for all the wrong reasons. Knowing peoples nature it's always good to be overly cautious. :)   

I've always preferred fruitbat myself...people think Im more accessible that way.
i get more babybats asking me questions, and less baybats asking other babybats questions in which they feel compelled to answer but, answer incorrectly.

-Lono

Honestly, In my time within the community I have seen a lot of stress placed on titles. Hell I've been with two physical "families" before and have never really attempted to figure out where I would be on the "rank" list. People focus too much on gaining it in my opinion and not the actually seeking of knowledge and helping others around them who need help in their seeking.

I have spoken with many "elders" or "Mor Roii" as some would call them and left the conversation feeling wanting in most cases. They are supposed to be pillars of the community and thus there to help out those of the community. I find that a lot separate themselves from most of the rest of the community through families or households or whatever you would call them and the community as a whole would suffer in some cases from that.

I think it is a essential part of the community that we have those we can look to as "elders" but the naming of it does not matter much to me. I have people I would go to to discuss things that I have difficulties with, or well used to since I have left the city, and those who would come to me for discussion. Its hard when there is no way to point out who has knowledge or who would be one of the people those in the community would go to for this. Even if that person wouldnt know how to help them or never experienced the topic as of yet they would know someone who might and guide you to them. They arent the know all of the communities but simply those who would have had spent years seeking knowledge.

There are people that have a lot of knowledge on energy working and may not have much knowledge on astral travel. Just as there will be those experienced with astral travel that dont have experience with healing. Its all a matter of what one person has worked with over time but it doesn't mean they will have all the answers, noone does. Simply having someone there through what you would work on spiritually or even someone there to go to when you have issues from "dayside" or mundane living. If you went into the whole of the hierarchy of the scene it would be a lot of segmenting and dividing of everyone into their respective groups. 

When it comes to how people in my neck of the woods would determine it. I have to say that one of the heads of family I was with prior to moving (and the drama) had a story about his court meeting regarding the granting of his "Eldership". The questions they asked were simply WHO do you know? Where have you met them? His reputation with those at said clubs and events. Not so much the thought of what does he know and how many years has he been seeking what he has learned or still learning. How he could be of help to the community and what he could be of help with.

I think those with the knowledge and "time" in the community should be given some respect if they give an attitude deserving of it. I think those that hide from the community at large not wanting to deal with those who would question, ridicule, and generally cause drama should be respected though. Its understandable not wanting to be involved with that portion of the community and hard to avoid. Hm i honestly don't know if there would be a way to reform the hierarchy to help with bringing those with knowledge and ability to help teach and support those younger within the community (Not necessarily in age but in time spent seeking) and also allow those same persons to learn from them in turn as a new mind will bring new ideas, thoughts, and pearls of knowledge themselves.

Hm i think i rambled on a bit longer than I expected to lol. Simply said we need "Pillars of the community" not to make up the community but to help support it and help it grow and keep strong.

Eldership:  One who has governed themselves accordingly and has acted with respect and proper ediquette to be adequettely liked above many others of the same merit.

This is a tough subject, yes.  I have seen many who were self proclaimed elders come and go.  This is only natural.  Hell, I remember when my cities (NOLA) was filled with ten to 20 self proclaimed elders.  Finally a couple of respected members put a stop to it by declaring "if anyone calls themselves elders one more time, they can kiss my ass."  This was taken half serious and half sarcastically.  But by the time most of those self proclaimed elders realized that it was taken into a decently serious direction, they backed off a bit.  Those who know they are elders don't say it outright, but know they are respected by their cities community and of course if their reputation online preceeds them, then online as well.  Eldership should not be a title, nor a declaration.  It should be an ediquetted way of greeting someone with more education, knowledge and or common sense then others in the community lack.  They should be there to mentor the "baby bats" (as Zaar words it).  Not to manipulate them into thinking they are being "awakened" (a word that holds little meaning for me), but to help them out through their travels in our community.

Just my two cents.

Of similar mind here.

Titles are just words, and are no substitute for character.

to soulshroude (Actually i thought i stole the term baby-bats from Evan Christopher  :P )

-L

Anyone can claim to be an elder, the ones who really are Elders represent themselves through action and word, the title meaning very little. Real Elders in this community are known to be elders and respected as such by those who feel it appropreate. If someone demends Elder respect...they most likely aren't elders.

Examples of which can be seen on Merts FB.  ;D

Yes I am looking for answers and don't know who to turn to. I need someone like a mentor, so to say, in this area that can help me to learn. It seems as though I was awakened and left to figure it out on my own, and I dont know what to do.

This isn't in direct reply to anything but the article.

I don't do pecking order.  We're all equal.
Respect must always be earned.
Every awakening is an individual experience.

I don't think having a mentor would have helped me personally at all, as then I'd have had pre-concieved notions about labeling my specific needs & methods of satisfying them.  That said, I guess sometimes people want to have another person to help them construct guidelines.  This may be necessary for some, I understand.  When left to my own devices I was able to learn what I should or should not do by experimentation & find effective methods for the different things I was able to do or experience.

I've never been big on structure, though!  Anyone who IS an "Elder" would never use the term themselves IMHO.  They simply ARE respected not because they demand it, but because they command respect automatically from those around them!  Power-grabbers & self-proclaimed teachers are not Edlers.

Nice one :)

Feel the same about it so sure there are teachers and those who are wise. Doesn't means they have to wear a big wig, a big neck crane and some kind of cape.

Most great teachers I seen well are just like you are me. Maybe longer in the game and have more natural insights then some others. But yeah equal like everybody else.

In a group I co lead our leadership is only in function. One of the going mantras is that each of us is a student and teacher.. we only use our function to keep trouble out of the house.

 8)  Kindred spirits always seem to gravitate together, maybe that's why the illusion of hierarchy fails with me.  Isn't it pretty easy to figure out who deserves respect & who doesn't?  Of course it is.  I think the real question here has to do with assigning public "spokepersons" (if you will) that most of us can agree are reasonable individuals.  That is a very rough rock to identify.
At the admitted risk of repeating myself, I don't think that we, as a community, should join in the "Golden Age of Transparency".
Who can we trust to represent us to a society that roundly denounces much of what we do?

If a new Awakened is lucky enough to find someone who's been through similar experiences & can help them learn how to control their abilities, that's priceless.  Being taught by a self-proclaimed Elder isn't a process I would ever trust.  Just saying.

: bump :

Minus the roleplay and drama.  An elder would be a good resource to consult with when life gets complicated.

I don't see things as Pecking Order...most of the houses I have seen don't seem to look at it as a pecking order...though I admit to seeing some act that way.  Senior members of the house are just that...people with time and expirence who can help guide you on your personal path if you let them. Everyone seems to forget that once you join a house, you are not locked in...you can leave at anytime. Being in a House is all about personal individual choices. Those who join choose to be part of a collective, they choose to follow the rules of that house.

Do House Elders have a stronger voice...well in some ways sure...but if the house you are involved with has any value they also understand that expirence comes in many ways and you do not have to be in a House to get expirence. You listen to all your members, from the very newest, to the oldest and you work together. Still at somepoint the decisions have to be made, and everyone, if there is going to be any unity of action or effort will have to abid by those decisions. If those decisions run too far against your own core, you can leave the group.

I think what a lot of people miss is that we are able to make up our own minds. But, if you want to get things done, it helps to have a group you are working with. It will never be perfect, but it is better for some of us then sitting around as a individual and able to accomplish little...though I have seen individuals accomplish a great deal, though in the end they end up in some kind of organization they have created to do so...call the group what you like...many minds, voices, talents and skills are better then a single, but only if unified with common goals. Other wise...its just community board bickering

Goals r great to have.  But as one gets older goals fade into history.  About 10 years ago I tried to remember what my goals were when I became a young adult.  For the life of me I could not remmber.  A number of years passed and I did remember a few.  Though I dont recall why I wanted the things I wanted.  If joining a House is  goal oriented then its another good reason for me to remain solo.  Perhaps thats  why so many that post r young.  Like minded people seeking answers to questions and working together to achieve an understanding is a lofty persuit.  I wonder how many members remain in a group for a lifetime?  I would imagine that number is small.

Strange that the whole discussion has waxed ethereal.  What work are these self-proclaimed Elders doing?  Those involved in the research aspect of everything have surely done a great deal!  Again, I must stress that trust must be earned.  All this talk of nebulous deeds which may or may not have occurred smacks of secrets that don't actually exist.  All I know is I can disrupt others by feeding upon them, help them by alleiviating their pain, or energize them like a cup of coffee would.  I never pretend to be cosmopolitan, others here have helped me a lot!  Could anyone be a bit more specific as to how they have personally been helped by becoming part of a House or having an Elder take them under the wing?  Thank you in advance!  :-)