Atlanta Vampire Alliance [AVA]

An Open Letter To The Vampire Community At Large
January 6, 2011 - By Zerochan
*DISCLAIMER: This is a rant, and thus composed of opinions that may be unpopular.

Ten years ago, the vampire community experienced a schism, now known as the Sang/Psi wars over who could consider themselves a vampire. Over the years, many had considered the issue to be solved. Both sanguinarians and psychic vampires were vampires, and were free to use the term. This did not however mean that they were the same. Bad blood has boiled between the two groups for years, but never has it escalated into the “wars” again. Much of this comes from left over prejudices. Psychic vampires who experience no blood need will tell Sanguinarians that they are simply sucking energy, whereas some Sanguinarians will tell Psychic vampires that they are not true vampires.

I am Zerochan, a sixteen year old hybrid vampire (meaning I NEED both blood and energy) who was been awake for six years, part of the community for two. I understand both needs, and both sides of the story. I joined this community in order to connect with others like me. I did not join to learn how to survive, that was learned through reading, and experience. I thought I would be able to befriend other vampires in a peaceful setting, without having to worry about who feeds on what, drama, or politics.

Recent events have shown me that I was wrong. First, there was the "JS" fiasco, as well as a string of crimes supposedly committed by “vampires” reported in the media. This made us all very fearful, and I suspect contributed to the boiling of blood. Several articles were published in the media about vampires, most of which claiming we all suck energy equally. While this made sanguinarians and hybrids grumble, nothing more came of it. This was until, a psychic vampire by the name of Sappho Wolf published an interview where she claimed that psychic vampires were the only true vampires, and that all blood drinkers were mentally ill. On top of this, she posted, under the name of Robert Parratoe, a supposed “study” claiming that blood drinkers were unable to differentiate between blood and a placebo. The effect of the community was seismic. It looked very much like old battle lines were about to be re-drawn, and due to their blood need, hybrids sided with sanguinarians. Eventually Ms. Wolf left VVC, and Ryan Dube renounced his previous prejudice. All seemed perfectly fine, until recently when “The Infamous CJ!” published her article “A Sanguinarian Treatise”. In this particular article, very harsh words were used against both psychic vampires and hybrids, essentially claiming that they were not true vampires, did not deserve scientific study, and even went as far as to say that all metaphysics were inherently false. This caught a large portion of the community off guard, especially hybrids. Now it looks very much like the “wars” are about to start up again. In nearly every vampire forum, and even in the offline community, there is nearly nothing but drama between psychic vampires and sanguinarians. There is bad blood on both sides, as well as extremely harsh, uncalled for words, and a refusal to stop bickering. To this, I have one thing to say.

GROW. UP.

This is not preschool. This community was started so that vampires of any type could come together and share their experiences, to get the support they needed without fear of ridicule. If we cannot sit down and at the very least get along in a community full of bloody VAMPIRES, where can we? Honestly? Is our goal to become just as closed minded and unaccepting of any dissenting thought, just like the majority of mundanes around us? Don't get me wrong either, there are no innocents in this. WE. ARE. ALL. IN. THE. WRONG.

Why don't I simply tell each of us why by type since we all seem so fond of segregation lately? Now, not all of what I'm going to say applies to everyone. There are vampires of all types that are just as sick of this as I am, level-headed, generally down to earth, and cool people. No, this simply applies to those of you who would stir the pot.

Sanguinarians: I know you hate being called elitist, but when you suggest splitting the entire community, claiming the word “vampire” for yourselves, telling everyone else they're full of shit, and saying that you'd rather most boards be sang only, THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE BEING. You are NOT the only ones with claim on the word due to myth. There are PLENTY of myths out there where vampires sucked energy rather than blood. On top of that, it is wrong to try and “blame” every energy feeder for any discrimination you have faced. Plenty understand your point of view in things, and if they don't, then look to the minority of elders who taught them those views in the first place! Do NOT go after the newly awakened, or those who don't know better. Try to educate a young vampire who simply hasn't heard it from the horses map. If it's an elder who should know better? Sure, rip 'em a new one if you want to. But you still have NO right to tell energy feeders that their need isn't just as real as yours. You don't like it when the WORLD says it to you, so why the hell would you do it here? And if you don't believe in metaphysics, FINE. Stay OFF the metaphysics boards, and don't reply to their threads. It is not hard to simply ignore something that you don't like without trying to make those of us who do believe in it suffer.

Psi Vamps: You do not drink blood. You feel no blood need. SO STOP TELLING BLOOD DRINKERS WHAT THEY NEED. You know about as much about blood drinking as a five year old knows about rocket science! Oh, you drink blood to feed on the energy? GOOD FOR YOU. It doesn't mean that the rest of us are doing the same thing! GROW A BRAIN! Don't sit there on a talk show and say that blood is a rudimentary way of taking energy, don't publish books saying that we're psis on training wheels, and biggest of all, don't claim that you're the only true vampires! You're being just as bad as the sangs that do it, if not worse because most of you act appallingly stupid to the point where the rest of us would throw you in a pit with JS. On top, do not, EVER, in a million years, claim you are facing discrimination from the rest of the community. There are psi-only boards, psi only covens/houses, psi only gatherings; but if anyone else does it you scream discrimination? Sit down, shut up, and stop trying to tell everyone else who they are.

Hybrids: Get your shit together! We're tired of being excluded, but you know why we're excluded? Because we sit there and let it happen! We need to decide who is, and who isn't a hybrid, start our own boards, write articles, and get our own damn representation! I'm in the process of writing a hybrid manifesto. To me, we NEED both blood AND energy. A psi vamp who feeds on blood, or a sang who learned to suck energy is not a hybrid. They are adaptive, meaning they have conformed to their environment. You do that and want to call yourself a hybrid? Better back yourself up in a damn good way. Go to the media, explain to others what it means to be a hybrid, what it means to need both. Make theories about WHY we need both (I have a couple), and discuss them with other hybrids!

Donors: I have no beef with you guys. You're amazing, and the only ones I'm sorry to see caught up in all this. You don't deserve it, and your vampires should know better.

All in all, we need to learn to get along. You think you're right for what you're doing, EXPLAIN WHY without pointing fingers. Pretty sad when we only have three main groups and can't even cooperate. Look at the Otherkin community! They're much younger than us, have HUNDREDS of different groups/schools of thought, and they still manage not to de-volve into a huge eff-off flamewar every couple of years. If they can do it, why can't we? There is no good reason why we can't. None at all. We are all acting like whiny children who need Mommy and Daddy to look over their shoulders and keep them from fighting with the other children. I used to be rather open about who I am, but thanks to you freaks acting like it's the end of the world if little Billy sucks energy and practices metphysics, and if little Sally drinks blood, I'm more in the coffin now than I ever was! Especially when you've spread this misinformation in the media! You expect the mundanes to accept us if we can't even band together amongst ourselves? Without a united standpoint, they will RIP US APART. And by united, no, I don't mean being all PC and saying we all suck energy. But I am saying we should unite as vampires because that's what we are! We are vampires because we must feed from other living sources in order to survive. Be it blood, energy, both, whatever! The blood drinkers are not sucking energy, hybrids are proof of that, and the energy feeders are not lesser vampires. We need to set our differences ASIDE and accept that though we might not always agree, we are still all in this together. I hate the Black Veil, but one of it's rules does apply to this situation:

“We are, all of us, a family, and like all families, various members will not always get along. However, respect the greater community when having your disputes. Do not let your individual problems bring emotional strife to the family as a whole. Settle your differences quietly among one another, only seeking out an elder's aid in mediation when no other solution seems possible. Never bring your private disputes into public places and never draw other family members into the issue by forcing them to take sides.
Like any normal family, we should always make an effort to present a stable and unified face to the rest of the world even when things are not perfect between us.”

Is that not exactly what we're doing? Are we not forcing all the other vampires to take sides in each petty argument between us?

If you need to drink blood, FINE. You are still a vampire. If you need to take energy, FINE. You are still a vampire. If you need both, THAT'S FINE TOO! Why is it so difficult to get together, accept our differences, and help eachother! You think that just because you're of a certain type you can act holier than you? Well move over Archimedes! I wasn't aware that you could have the secrets to life, the universe, and everything conveniently shoved up your ass.

If all the community wants to become is a place full of drama, politics, and who should watch their backs, then as soon as the war breaks out again, I'm out of here. I want no more part in this, and I will certainly not direct the newly awakened to it, at least until things cool down. Because you know what? Not only do you hurt solitaries with your media crusade, but you hurt the newly awakened even more. All they will get at this point is misinformation from both sides of it, and that if not fair. Not at all. If you would like to act worse than children, go ahead. I'm sick of being told I'm undecided, should just suck energy, or am not enough of a vampire. I'm sick of taking flak for being a vampire who happens to like the goth scene as well. If you can't accept that others have different ideas than you do, then there is a problem.

Especially if it's happening, of all places, in the Vampire Community.

I like you.  :)  And I would gladly join anything Hybrid related that you do.   8)

Eloquently put, Zerochan. I hope many people read your words and take them to heart. Thank you for posting.

Greetings Zerochan:

Well written post, congradulations  
You write in a style well beyond your listed years.
Good sumation also.
I agree we all stand at the same level.
Sadly, I expect someone to stir up the dung about your post.

Brian .......................Trilliums Halo....
*************************************************

Well said thank you for posting this...it is so time we rise above the petty squabbling and unify and accept others as they are, not try to tell them who they are or what they arent

Zerochan, you wield wisdom beyond your tender years.  Good on ya!  Its wonderful to see a statement like this.  I hope it is give the same backing as many of the opposition statements have been being given lately.

I agree with you 100% And you have a right to rant. I applaud you>   Not all sangs and not all psi vamps feel like the ones that so loudly have voiced their opinions claiming that everyone else feels as they do when it is simply not true.

As a Sang who has "adapted" to PSI feed, I only have one thing to say about this post --- Where the hell is the "like" button? :) I think if anything was needed to clear the air, that was it.

I think recent events have shown more than ever that the Vampyre Community needs to reach a consensus and set out a policy/manifesto defining basically everything you put in there.

I also have to say - 16? Wow, very mature writing.

Kudos to you.

Val

Basically I find this to be what the OP describes it as: a rant. And posting rants across forums, to me, usually indicates someone seeking confirmation of their opinions and beliefs. This rant appears to be written as a response to the Sanguinarian treatise written by CJ, which the OP found personally offensive. And I am not criticizing her for that, but feel that her responses do not need to turn into a letter to the entire community.

As for the content of the rant, there's not much there that has not been said before, as much of it is not based on personal experience (the OP is relatively new to the OVC and in other places appears to partly disregard the responses from people who have been here much longer). This content has not yet proven to resolve any conflicts; if anything, it has escalated them. The generalizations and condescending tone don''t help things any.

The truth is the truth though. Be it from experience or otherwise.

Well claycat, with the volume of a few select voices pushing for conflict.. its nice to see a equally visible counter statement.

I agree with both your posts, Sylivia, and also with all but one of the posts thus far.

Zerochan - your letter deserves laudation, not derogation.  It was mature, well-written, well thought-out, and easy to follow.  Yours may not be a new take on the situation, but it was worthy of an open letter, because obviously people have not listened to those who spoke before.

I awakened at a very young age, but I am new to the online community... and frankly, I don't know if I want to be here.  Such petty squabbling is ridiculous, especially from a community which wants so badly to be taken seriously.

I am hoping to find more members like yourself, (and most of those who have posted), but my hopes aren't very high.

This community is constantly proving to be a mix between high school and the tabloids, and I don't subscribe to that type of behaviour.

Hopefully, Zerochan, your letter will help remind all involved of what is important and what is at stake.

So wait...if you're 16, that means you "woke" to being a vampire at 10. I find that extremely hard to believe. Ah well. If you don't burn out, you'll most likely refine your beliefs over time.

I'm also getting tired of all the meta. Rather than write yet another pointless article addressing the writhing mass of the OVC, why don't people put forth effort into writing about their own experiences with vampirism, or involve themselves in projects that could tangibly represent what they believe or their communities? Oh wait, these things take more effort than an afternoon and a word processor. My bad.

How is that hard to believe? Although I will admit that it's a minority, there are vampires who awaken before puberty. Also, I began as psi-only, not really connecting things to vampirism before I started to develop the blood need around twelve.

As for not really doing anything, like I said, I'm in the process of writing hybrid based articles as well.

Also, I'd like to say thanks for the mostly positive responses. It gives me a lot of hope for the community.

Thank-you, Zerochan. Your letter was perfect. You said what needed to be said, plainly & honestly, without the verbose, twisted wording that CJ felt necessary to make her own manifesto sound intelligent. Consider me as giving you a standing ovation right now.

I agree with this... IN PART...

Zerochan, you touch on several things but it is only a select few on both sides of the line that perpetuate and aggravate the situation.  When we, as a whole community, stand side by side, we accomplish great things...  Like presenting a united front to a would-be critic of the community and showing him that we aren't the monsters someone made us out to be

You got that right; drama is going to destroy our community if we let it. Every click and subculture in the world has this problem as well unfortunately because of what we are some end up letting if feed on them or they feed on it. It sucks us dry at times and this does need to stop. Thanks for your post!

There should be no reason as to why we cannot all get along peacefully, in every aspect of life there is differences in how we all should live. Leave and let live. I do not agree with how some people choose to live their lives the same as how others do not agree with my life. However due to extremists i have to live my life in the shaddows of shame. I am not ashamed of who or what i am but i do not condemn those that are not the same as me.

Thank you, Zerochan, for saying so thoughtfully & eloquently what really needed to be said.  IMHO many lately are adopting the "poor me" attitude & grabbing for attention.  They're getting it & I, too am guilty of being drawn into these discussions.  Like everyone else, I want to give my two cents.  I think you've stated the most reasonable standpoint on the recent bickering that I've seen so far.  If the VC continues down the path to segregation & elitism we'll be able to offer nothing more than an elaborate game to newly awakened who are looking for real information.  In this sense, the forums will cease to be a valuable tool, which would be very sad.  I've learned a great deal from the forum here, I'd hate to see division mar the value of what can be learned!  Not that any who sprout new groups, exclusive or otherwise, are to be ostracized.  Rather that each of us should remember we are free to explore our own path, as you say.

My applause for you Zerochan. Mostly because despite having the same age as me, you say things that most people here think but dare not say.

 I think we all have guilt, we always complain that the people who are not vampires, don't misunderstand our condition, etc. And..... As we expect ordinary people to accept us if between us we can not do? It is as if others criticize you because of your race or color.
We all want to found answer, but how we are going to find out if we can not support each other? And instead of seeking
we get to create "wars"nonsense? Maybe if we let that comments,that one is better than the other, they are not vampires etc., And we put our best to talk about the condition of each, that things have in common each type, perhaps we could move towards responses. We must create questions and seek answers, not who is better.
 
I think the word vampire has caused much controversy. I think you just have to see for now only as a term for our condition as we found out what happens to us.   all here say we are not mythical vampire, which is true, but then who gives them the right to say who is vampire, who doesn't?

Just I have very little time with my awakening and I'm also new to this community and I am looking for answers, which for me are difficult to obtain, mainly because here in Mexico there is no knowledge about the awakening, not  like other countries. But as I hope to find them if someone tries me to pick a side? If someone says that there are no hybrids? Sangs that are better or worse?

We should all be united, if we get answers.
Greetings


(I hope you understand my comment, I have to use translators.) lol


 

Eehhh, I would agree with you in part, however I would say that the psis are equally - if not more so - elitist than sangs are.  Secondly, Explain to me, zerochan, your concept of a `hybrid' please, as I would like to have it clarified before I say much further.

Well, one thing's for sure, this is definitely a rant if there ever was one, based on all the inconsistencies goin on.  For the standards of a rant, its great. 

For the record, Zerochan, There will always be problems that will arise.  The solution isn't to stop out all problems, but to assist in *how* we handle the conflict.  I can see eye-to-eye on the fact that there's a lot of childish nonsense that's been going on for a long time, I just wish there could be a window of opportunity to come to resolves rather than lots of never-ending arguments. 

As far as citing the Otherkin communities as shining examples, I'm going to have to strongly object to that point.  The Otherkin communities are almost entirely comprised of turf wars, from what I have seen, and spend almost all of their time in feuds that go far beyond rationale, patience, or maturity.  To find any long-lasting peace in the Otherkin community is very hard to find, although it definitely is out there. 

I agree more than *anything in the world* that the ones who suffer the most in any vampire conflict whatsoever are the newly awakened.  They get shit on continuously in all different kinds of ways, mild to detrimentally severe.  I've spoken about that in the past, and so I won't repeat myself. 

Can be posted for all to see in reference to the email I recieved titled: New Announcement: An Open Letter to the Vampire Community - Zerochan
 
I am new and just read what a 16 year old wrote who obviously found someone who would teach him and guide him and has obviouslt learned alot. I don't know many 30 year olds who could write something as extroidinary as that. I tried blood for the first time last night after being Psi because I couldnt get my "teacher" on the phone who has been feeding me from a distance and didn't know what else to do because I have not been properly taught how to feed, other than what I am reading in Michelle Bellanger's The Psyhic Vampire Codex. And if there is anyone out there who has the time to take someone under there wing and help the learn the basics please let me know. I need some help, and it's like there is no place to go to get it. I can walk in somewhere and say I need help because I don't know where to go. I can't just ask everyday people because they would probably think Im crazy. So what else am I to do than trying to figure this whole thing out on my own, and I just don't think this is something I can learn and figure out on my own. So someone please Im asking that someone out there help me learn how to feed and learn how to control the need and how to know when I need to feed so that I don't get so far gone I don't have the energy to feed. Someone out there please help me.
 
NightShade

A hybrid, put simply, is a vampire who requires both blood and energy in order to maintain their health instead of just one or the other.

So you are saying, then, you view what you get from blood as being separate from what you get from energy?

Yes, I most certainly do. If it wasn't seperate, I could just get by on one or the other.

Ya know, with that logic, it kinda shoots the hells out of the common psi argument that sangs are 'on training wheels' if it is in fact something different or separate.

I have to say, this is a rant for the ages :)  "Out of the mouth of babes..." as the saying goes I guess.  I'm 23, and feel my intellect and knowledge of certain things (certainly myself and what I am) to be beyond my years, but this...you truly are wise for someone your age.  As for the issues raised in your letter here, I'd have to agree on most every point, although I'd also agree with what someone else said, both sangs and psis can adapt an eletist attitude equally.  It is all based on individuals though.  And that's the thing, and I'm sure you aimed it so, this letter was directed to those whom it specifically was talking about, and if you feel it doesn't apply to you then don't worry yourself about it.  Give support where its needed though.  I hope to see your hybrid article soon, as I find it rare to see anyone speak out that YES, there are those who need both energy AND blood, as seperate needs to maintain their health, with seperate yet linked consequences if they do without.  Keep it up and don't let any negative responses get you down.  From here on, its about what's next.  Its important we acknowledge this rant and move on from it to something more positive, in the sence of the Community's unity and peace.

We are all the elite, we are all the hunters,
Till a day arrives when,
We are not the elite, and we become the hunted.

History is what we are, for tomorrow is the future and today will be the past.
There will always be something or someone that is stronger than those before us so,
In reality, NONE of us are elite, it's afterall, the circle of life.

Can anyone argue this??

The arguments against her 'rant' have all been predictable ones so far.  But I have to agree with the 'out of the mouths of babes' comment.  I can't help but wonder what people might have said if she hadn't have posted her age.  ;)

I like the way her letter was presented, it was a jab to ALL of us, myself included.  After all, it's true that us Hybrids get marginalized because we let it be so...I got sick of being ignored when the Sangs and Psis start their verbal attacks against one another, so I just quit posting.  I get that 'I am who I am and I don't feel like justifying myself over and over' attitude because I have bigger fish to fry in my offline life.  It's happened on more than one occasion when I post the 'what about Hybrids' and it gets lost in a sea of bitching between a few select people who get personal and outrageous.  I could fight harder, but it's much easier just to sit in the back of the room and go 'Hybrids get ignored.' /sadface  That IS my fault.  Way to point out the faults in someone twice your age, I appreciate it. 

I think other people should 'appreciate' it as well.  Thank someone for constructive criticism, do not get defensive.  Defensiveness is going to get you stuck where you are.  Now I know that I have a problem, I can work towards bettering myself, and continue helping those around me.

I don't really see the Open Letter as a rant, it's more like a welcome call to arms!  Let's remember we're all in this together, right?  Let us not forget the grace of our donors, the healing that happens in our exchanges, or the importance of truly OWNING our conditions!  Sang or Psi, it matters not.  I think if we teamed up a bit more IRL we could effect some astounding occurrances!  Better the neigborhood by scaring away lurkers, not allowing your place to live to be an easy target, right?  People get freaked when ya melt out of the shadows & beat them at their own game, I've seen it!  Let's patch up & do something good!  No more war!

.....Wow. someone ODed on optimism there.  Unfortunately, sangs and psis have a deep gulf, and i dont see it being bridged anytime soon.

Sadly, I agree. At least, not on a global scale...individually, maybe some bridges can be built one-on-one, but the problem with these rants/letters is that generally the people who really need to see them (i.e. the ones actually making the statements) don't.

Zerochan - I would really, really love permission to use / repost this, as I'm not sure I could have said it better.  May I?

Rubicúnda - That's one good translator.

NightShade - If all else fails, I'll be there to talk if you want.  Just be careful with what you read - Bellanger's stuff only applies to one extremely small (and in my opinion, utterly foolhardy) subset of vampires.  Because of that, most of what she writes isn't something worth taking seriously (unless you're Kheprian, and in that case, I sadly withdraw my offer of support).

Okay, maybe I did wax a bit overly enthusiastic.  Seems to me that there are a lot of stick-in-the-muds here ("We are TOO different, dammit!").  Be that as it may, I can understand the disenchantment of people who are just trying to understand how to go about being what they are.  This seems to beg the question, "What AM I?" & pigeonholing, labeling & the like only constrict our potential.  If it helps, I admit I started out as a sang, & for obvious reasons (the trouble with feeding at the age of 12) spent a good part of my high school years being sick with doctors unable to help.  My mother was very big on meditation & the astral world, so I learned a lot about the nature of energy.  When I discovered I could in fact heal myself by "stealing" energy from others, what a revelation!  Now I occasionally take blood from my willing husband, but it's not something I need to do.  His energy works very well.  If I want to avoid the insomnia, hunger, aches, pains & general misery, muddled thinking & chronic lethargy that's what I need to do.  What I don't understand is why there's such a huge rift between Sang & Psi.  Can someone please help me out here?  I, for one, have never considered myself the superior of anyone else (with the exception of the Mundanes).  Why would anybody?

Zerochan well said and about time! I really hope to hear more people voice views like this. It's what the VC needs a good kick in the ass and a wake up call if we can't stand together and work as a group no one will take us seriously.

Anyone's welcome to repost this. =D Go right ahead. :)

Sorry, but I have to ask this question. As one of "the Mundanes" in this community, I would seriously love to hear how you are superior to me. You talk about how we all need to get along and everyone in the community could learn from Zerochan's letter, then you go and say that. This is part of why this "gulf" as RK called it  is not going to heal anytime soon, to many people acting or feeling superior to another, and then calling for "unity", equality, or "can't we all just get along", it only makes it wider.

Not trying to start a fight here, just truly feel that that statement is the type of thing that causes harm to the community.

My apologies, Cheri.  As a donor I don't consider you a Mundane.  I consider those who ignore the VC completely to be Mundane.  A thousand pardons!  Perhaps my definition of "mundane" is not the generally accepted one.  I guess if I knew how to strike out that part of my statement, I would.  Donors are the farthest from mundane that could possibly be imagined!

No need to apologise .Sorry if I came acrossed as snappy about that Oblivion,  I truly am trying to understand the idea of how a vampire is  superior to any other human. I could have worded my  reply less personally. I see vampires as people, simply people with a need, not unlike many other people that have needs. I understand that some vampires feel it is a spirtual thing, and others feel they are superior beings(the entire top of the food chain thing). I seriously would like to know how you feel a vampire is superior to any other human, you personally. It helps me in my understanding of how people think.

It is not just the differences in sang,psi and hybrid causing this discord in the community. Some of it is caused by the mind set that puts of one group of humans being "better then" another.

I feel some quotes of the thread featuring my treatise are very appropriate in this rather emotional and faithful call to unity.



To be succinct unity is not in my interest and it is my opinion that it shouldn't be of interest to any sanguinarian that takes their sanguinarianism seriously.

To be rather candid, CJ, you are also on record here as not wanting to be sanguine, either, so I personally find it rather difficult to put much stock into what you say.  Most of us accept what we are for what we are, and use it to better our lives -- not consider it a hindrance or disability.

There is absolutely no proof that sanguinarianism is a fixed state. There is no empirical data for ANYTHING in the "real vampire" community. That is why I find it very premature to conduct ourselves as an identity group when we know very little of ourselves.

I speculate that a major reason why so many people within this community reacted so emotionally to my treatise is that my proposal is a visceral attack on the vampire as well as sanguinarian identity. Opening oneself to scientific scrutiny and obtaining empirical facts behind sanguinarianism will leave less room for anyone who identifies as vampiric, with all due respect to Sarah McLachlan, to build a mystery.

Which leads to why Zerochan's letter was appealing to many: it was basically glurge which celebrated the vampire identity by appealing to how mine and SapphoWolf's interview made them feel as opposed to the actual content of the pieces. Misrepresenting the situation as battle for who the "true vampires" are affirms vampire identity in the minds of many of the readers who were shaken by the treatise.

Misrepresenting this or any community as one in which you can see fit to foist sides onto everyone who participates in it affirms that you, CJ, are pompous, and rude.  No matter how many song lyrics you attempt to cleverly weave into your posts. 

I also agree completely with RK's statement. 

So what you're saying, is that you, personally, want a cure for sanguinarianism? Let's say hypothetically you found one, what then? Don't think for a minute that it wouldn't be forced on all sanguinarians. It would be the same as if they found a "cure" for homosexuality. After all, blood drinking is taboo. But then, what about the sangs who simply don't WANT a cure. What about those who have learned to thrive as what they are, and do not view this as a disability? I I certainly don't view it as such. I've learned to survive. The tone of the things you say however, screams that you haven't. You view your condition as an unfortunate hindrance, and obviously have not learned to thrive as who, and what you are. You don't accept YOURSELF, and therefore strive to have all of us change.

Zerochan nails it. Nicely done.

Cheri, I'll try to put this as simply as I can (may not do a very good job of it, but A for effort, right?):  rather that view the condition I'm in as a hindrance or something to be addressed as a hole that must be filled, I look at it as an advantage I have over those who do not have it.  I'm able to do things others can't or won't because I've recognized the causes & effects of the ability to move energy to where it's best put to use.  In my opinion there must be many who choose to be mundane by ignoring their own innate abilities, be they energy working, improved well-being through sanguinarianism, or any number of other suppressed talents.  In the same spirit I would consider donors of all kinds to be gifted in their ability to embrace, understand, & give of themselves that most intimate gift: their life force in whatever form.  In closing, please understand I actually do feel a bit sorry for people who think their own reality is the only one out there.  I realize my reality may not mesh up well with some others & I think there's good reason for us all being a bit different.  I feel sorry for those who ignore vampire reality in the same way I feel sorry for people who think AIDS is a scourge from God.  They're missing out on a hugely rich part of life that should be recognized & resourced.  And no, that doesn't mean I think everyone should be vampires.  I just don't think they realize how much the VC can enrich them.  That is a pity.

Love and respect yourself, and others will love and respect you.  Degrade and reject yourself and...fill in the blanks.

I want it. What about me?
Oh whoops, my opinion doesn't matter to people who want a vampire identity.

If you want it, fine. But those who do had better ensure it doesn't end up forced on the rest of us.
THAT is my problem with a "cure". Providing it's even possible for something I personally view as genetic.

I don't feel that Vampirism makes who you are. Though i view it as a condition, you feel ill effects due to it, then you treat it (feed) and feel better.

I don't personally attribute any abilities or sensitivities to vampirism, other than perhaps a NEED to manipulate energy. but we mention all the time that ANYONE can learn to manipulate energy and become aware and sensitive to it. Vampirism does not give any special powers and does  not make you who you are. You will not change, if it is cured.
What about donors or finding your need (blood or energy) is it not difficult? do you ever wish there was an easier way?

at the very least, i would LOVE for a diagnosis, and official word to confirm it.. a cure would be great too, but if this is purely metaphysical (as some believe) then nothing physical can cure it.
If i had confidence that i knew what it was i suffer from, and readily had my need whenever i wanted/needed it, sure i'd be more comfortable with it, but nothing lasts forever, something always happens, i still think a cure would be a positive thing and would not take away anything that someone doesn't want taken away.

.....Riiight. If you want a 'cure' go talk to wingedwolf and her tinfoil hat cure.

why do many "psis" want the sangs to get cured?
Western Medicine has never been about "cures" only "treating /prolonging" (not enough cash flow in cures).

I would highly doubt any "cure" would ever be found , treatment maybe...

I have to agree. There are so many 'diseases' and such out there that have absolutely NO cure and never will. All that can be done is going through a life long treatment. Top it off folks, we do have big brother watching us. How many of you REALLY want to be on file as being labeled with a 'disease' that causes you to drink blood. Hmmmm? I know it is different in many ways, but is still a damned good example of what happens when big brother has too much of your information at his fingertips...

Unsuspecting Colorado residents were asked to have their dogs licensed which asked them to list the dog's breed or breeds on the paperwork. They thought nothing of it. I mean damn..it gave the place more money and it was something they felt needed to be done. So many good things could come of it. Finding lost dog's owners, making sure people kept up with medical care for poor helpless doggies. What could possibly go wrong huh? Heh, what went wrong is that all that information along with their addresses were at the governments fingertips. When Colorado made it illegal to own American Pit Bull Terriers, there was no grandfather clause in effect. So all those people thinking the licensing was a good thing had officers knocking on their doors after the law took effect. They all got to watch their PETS get drug out of their houses and killed on the spot if not taken away to be killed in mass. Then after watching all this unfold before their very own eyes, they were fined.

So I ask all of you, DO you REALLY want to go through the trouble of handing all your personal information over along with the fact you are receiving treatment or refusing treatment for drinking blood to where the good ole government has access to it? You know the government who has a penchant for pandering to the fearful masses in the most illogical ways such as comign up with band-aid fixes that tend to bring out the mob mentality in the good god fearing subjects? DO you want them to have access to all of that where they can make laws on a whim to take your children from you and refuse you to work in certain types of jobs or live in certain areas in order to appease their voting subjects who FAR out number all of us? Just a thought from someone who has battled many ill thought out laws coming from the government attempting to appease fearful voters who refuse to be educated and would rather eradicate or impart full government control over what they fear...

I feel my response to RK on the treatise thread basically answers all your questions.

Why Cure Sanguinarianism? (RKCoon)
A sanguinarian isn’t what I am. A sanguinarian isn’t who I am. It is just something extra I have to deal with: consume blood or pay the consequences. Although we may behave like an identity group I feel it is way too soon and rather pretentious to say that we are one. There are no hard facts about sanguinarianism yet. All we have is testimony and anecdotal evidence. There is nothing that confirms that sanguinarianism is necessarily a permanent condition although if we never get access to clinical trials that may end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sanguinarianism isn’t like homosexuality. The only detriment to being gay was the biases and prejudices of other people. Sanguinarianism have problems outside of social sentiment: if we don’t feed, we get sick. Wouldn’t it be nice to be rid of this extraneous need and the stigma that goes along with it? On the flipside, and speaking in a hypothetical situation given that clinical trials were done, should the medical and/or psychological community offer a treatment that seems worse than just managing my sanguinarianism, this could more solidify sanguinarianism as an identity.

I thought I was done and then I saw Sarah Palin's Nadia's post. It's as if she yanked the tinfoil hat off of WingedWolf's hat and decided to wear it herself. Using her logic one shouldn't seek treatment for depression, AIDS, STDs and any other disease which may have some stigma to it just because the evil government will use it against you.

Try again with no personal attack attached.

 Usually when there is more concrete evidence concerning a matter there is less opportunity to be creative enough to spark some sort of moral panic based on deception. This is more likely to happen the less we know about ourselves.
 

CJ!, there is nothing tinfoil about it...you are reaching. There is a huge difference between AIDS, STDS and so on and DRINKING BLOOD. The people at large were educated about all those sorts of thing, but still have to battle the religious freaks. DRINKING BLOOD...is going to have a much more negative effect as many have found out already. Increase it ten fold when it comes out that there ARE indeed people who feel a NEED to drink HUMAN BLOOD. Then add on the wannabe freaks who keep ending up in the media for murder and so on...you have a not so good chance to finding yourself not too far off from my example. IF, we did not have the huge problem of so much bad media hype against the community we MIGHT have similar response to the 'problem' as someone afflicted by AIDS. As it stands...we are viewed as mentally insane, cultish freaks preying on the innocent populace. Now..can you argue that without any personal attacks?

I don't believe i targeted sangs or psis specifically, though a physical condition would be more likely to be treatable or curable than a metaphysical (if either is even real in the first place).

But there are people suffering from such 'diseases' who, i would think it safe to assume who don't use it as an identity, who don't cling to it, and if a choice were possible, would like to be rid of it.
I don't see much if any benefits from Vampirism (on either side of hte spectrum). All your abilities, relationships, even whatever tie you feel you ahve with the community, doesn't necessarily disappear or wouldn't. it would not change WHO you are, because WHO you are involves a lot more than some condition/disease/whatever.

I can understand if one has found a happy medium, a way to balance their need in their life and may not care one way or t he other (or apparently don't want a cure). But finding donors, wasting time and energy on getting what you need, be it in the past, now or in your future, is it not a hassle? The symptoms you feel when you don't get what you need, do you not suffer? That's all i understand Vampirism to be. A cure or treatment would be great, imo.

That IS  a risk that i have not thought of, and a possiblity. As was mentioned with Western medicine and looking for money. It is a risk and while a cure, imo, would be favorable, there is risk in everything and if, by some chance it were available, i would think and hope that all seeking or receiving it would educate themselves properly and know what htey're getting into. Shit happens, i mean it sucks and no one wants that to happen, but how can you be sure something is a risk.
Does it seem like people with diabetes, cancer, even porphyria have that risk? They have just as much suffering, with seemingly no cure. Though, the blood drinking (or energy ability) is different, it still could bee seen as a disorder or whatever it is..What's wrong with that other than treating it? The Government sucks, but while they could turn around on blood drinkers, they could turn around on ANYONE for nearly ANYTHING, having a condition in which you need or believe you need blood, doesn't make it any more unique than anyone else suffering some other ailment, disorder or whatever..

We hand over our personal information all the time, doctor's offices, purchases, internet.. if the Govt. wants out identity and a reason to discriminate against us (or find us) i'm sure they have their ways already.


Aren't a lot of Vampires (sang and psi) FOR getting tests and stuff done? aren't a lot of real vampires willing and desiring to learn more about  us/themselves and teach to others?
We're still learning a lot, and there's a lot TO learn. Who's to say we won't know more about it with time?

can't WE change that?

(sorry for the triple post, either i'm REALLY blind lately or something in the forum has changed  :()

I hope the original poster and the recipient don't mind my using this (can provide a link to post if needed or request admin to delete), but i read this reply on another forum and must say that i agree.
Please keep in mind, just in case, i am NOT looking for conflict nor to start drama by bringing a discussion from one forum to another, however it was under a topic/thread about a cure, and we are currently discussing a cure.

Bingo.

Another copypaste for you all.


Don't blame the media and society. It's are own fault. And those calling for unity are the enablers. In fact Nadia's laughably hysterical rant feeds into such sensationalism.

I guess not many have fought certain laws from coming into play all over the US and can see a difference. The diseases mentioned are that. Diseases. Yes people got hysterical about AIDS. Though they were more terrified of catching it. Same with STDS as they came out. They were not in fear so much though of what they saw as monsters. Thus far vampires have been painted as child stealing(from the kidnappings and all the kids running away to be with someone on anything possibly vampire related), cult followers, blood drinking wackos, murderers, and as those who would kidnap adults to drink their blood or attack someone some where to drink their blood. All in all, we are viewed as monsters. Throwing a disease label on us is not going to do much to help. It will solidify that there are those who do indeed need to drink human blood and make people even more fearful of anythign that they might perceive as a vampire a deadly monster amongst them. Not someone who has some disease causing them to have a need for human blood. They will scream that the human populace at large is in danger and all of them must have something done to them. Such as forcing the cure on everyone. How about forcing those who refuse a cure into an assylum...that was REALLY popular way back when with those with depression or mental disabilities. Why would it be different now with a group of people the media has painted the picture of being dangerous to others? No matter what we do, the media will put out what will sell and obtain viewers and nice vampires suffering because of a condition or disease is NOT going to be it. We already have cases of people loosing jobs and children and spouses because of vampirism, do you really think this is going to change now that vampires are monsters amongst innocent helpless god fearing people by going so public with it? You are deluding yourselves and giving the human populace far too much credit in the logical and rational thought processes.

Where as CJ here can do nothing but rant about how others are making hysterical rants and are insane while not backing anything up with experience or with real world happenings. The only thing she is able to do is run about the forum patting herself on the back for causing dissention and splitting everyone up here and causing fighting as she herself stated was her sole reason for even coming here to post. Meanwhile doing her best chasing a pipe dream based in nothing realistic when taking into account how the real world seems to work. While stating she is trying to make an attempt to cure herself of something she absolutely despises. You know, sounding more and more insane and more and more of nothing better than a shit stirrer like the likes of SW. Wow, you really are one to open your pie hole about others anywhere. -snkr

This warranted further attention...


Considering that it is YOU, CJ, along with a few others here that is making the claim that vampirism is a disease to be cured, your comment rings hollow. Secondly, history has long shown that if the government of the time wishes to persecute a group, it WILL, and helping them makes it worse for the individual. the jews found this out in the thirties and fourties, the natives found that out before hand, and so on.   Further, as Nadia said, drinking blood, while taboo in western cultures (thanx, right wing religions) has been around since the dawn of time in many various tribes and so forth.

While I am in favor of a group by and for sanguines, to avoid the psi nonsense, I will also state it has to be done in such a way that doenst set us up to be raked over the coals; by the governments, the people, and fringe groups as well.

Finally, where do you get this notion that Nadia is calling for unity?

For the record, a physical defficancy, that requires an external remedy for the body to operate normally would be by medical terms a disease.  Koon, you may not like the terminology but that Is what is described when you talk about a pure sang theory.

I think that this may represent a fraction of the sang community, but not all if it.. with a non physical component factoring in.  (a few drops if blood lost should not cause fatigue and ghost limb pain, but that is the effect when I try to donate to my sang wife) .

Thus is not a black and white issue... but shades of grey.  Certainty the disease model would not apply to every sang.

To me, there are two explanations that make sense. Genetics, or possibly in some cases metaphysics. You can't cure either one of those. If it's genetic, which it likely is, the most you can do is life long, and often painful treatments. Personally, I'd rather feed. I know that works, and there's no nasty chemical side effects.

Also, my letter called for an end to the bickering, and was not inspired by CJ! and her rant that was really nothing more than stirring the pot. This had actually been stewing in my brain for quite some time.

If it does happen to be the case, then i can agree with you there, and am sure many can.

By that logic, those that are short are diseased, those that are amputees are diseased, and so on. In practice, however, this is not considered the case, as in practice, what consitutes a disease is either a biological parasite of some kind or a genetic issue. beyond that, other issues are dealt with separately. So, again, wrong.

I'm sorry I read came on here late but yea like everyone said I aggree 100% myself also, this is reality not fiction we need to get along and stop jumping on others because of how they feed or not feed. I hope you meet some good vampires in your travel.

Thought this might help:
dis·ease
 
–noun
1.
a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

World English Dictionary
disease
 
— n
1.    any impairment of normal physiological function affecting all or part of an organism, esp a specific pathological change caused by infection, stress, etc, producing characteristic symptoms; illness or sickness in general

Word Origin & History

disease
early 14c., "discomfort," from O.Fr. desaise , from des-  "without, away" (see dis-) + aise  "ease" (see ease). Sense of "sickness, illness" first recorded late 14c.; the word still sometimes was used in its lit. sense early 17c. Related: Diseased .

-Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disease)

For psis, it is believed that their body's energetic system is impaired or malfunctioning. I would assume, unless you believe in spiritual genetics/inheritance that this might fall under nutritional deficiency or imbalance (in a sense [not physically]).

Sanguinarism (sp?) could also fall under the definition of disease, though being potentially more physical, there is chance of more pointing to it as being a physical disease.
 

Though i, personally, am still gonna be stuck on calling it/both a "condition" rather than a disease.

I am aware that is the technical definition, darklilone, but in practice, as i said, people with non degenerative issues (ie, their amputated stump wont get shorter, they wont grow taller, etc) are not considered diseased, and although it is a condition to be managed, it, generally, cant up and make them worse/kill them.  Trying to push vampirism, particularly sanguine vamprism, as a disease, only reflects what I hinted at in several topics - the will by psis to not acknowledge what they may be, and more over, the will to marginalize sangs as much as possible.

I don't see most Psis as being involved in some attempted to undermine the Sangs. Is there a lot of confusion...most certainly. PSIS don't claim, my in large, totally understand the manner in which they feed, which is why there are so many catagories and lables. Some Sangs have basically said that PSIS are pretty much all fakes because ot this lack of certainty or proof. So the question comes, automatically...ok so what is the sangs are feeding from?

We get, as expected, different answers. Some sangs tell us it is physical, biological, or physiological in nature. So the question that pops to most minds would be...well what is it? If it is something along those lines, it can be treated once identified. Of course some sangs really do not like that idea, because it that is true, then any claim to being a Vampire in any aspect would be as rediculous as claiming to be a vampire simply because one has anemia. So then we are told, you horrid PSIS, it is not that simple, if you would stop role playing you could see we are clearly real vampires with a real need for blood. So the question then follows, well what is it in the blood that is NOT Physiological in nature in the blood that you  need. Basically we get the same answer we get from PSIS...I don't know.

For me it comes down to two things. Either it IS physiological in nature and thus treatable if the property in question is found, or it is not physiological in nature which puts it on the same footing as Psis.  Which is only a question at all because we keep hearing how PSIS are so horrid picking on the sangs who can't seem to decide what the hell they are talking about, and are mad at the PSIS for being no more clear on the subject.

Maybe I am wrong but if so...tell me the other choices, and agree on somthing other then just getting miffed that the PSIS seem just as confused as the Sangs.
The only thing that seems clear is that for some reason some Sangs and some PSIS want to ensure there is Drama and fighting, over a subject that neither seems to have a grasp on.

Well put, Grey.

From an eastern medicine perspective, many psis fall into the category of having a disease as well. 

Western medicine lends to strictly the physical in general.  A pure physical, cause and remidy, as described by some sang theory, would fall well into a category classified as a medical condition or disease.  Nothing derogotory ever was meant to pure physical sangs... its just speaking in the language of what actually may be able to come up with some answers. 

I've often thought of vampirism as a sort of psychic Type I Diabetes: the person's spirit does not, for whatever reason, produce enough energy, just as a the body of a person with Type I Diabetes does not produce enough insulin or any at all. The manner of how a vamp gets their "spirit insulin", as it were, is nobody's business, as long as they aren't taking from unwilling donors. It's like arguing over whether a diabetic person should take their insulin via injections or a patch on their skin or an insulin pump.

I'm getting tired of the flouncy fits and fang-measuring contests. It doesn't do anyone any good and it doesn't reflect well on us to the mundanes. It's one reason that I haven't been visiting the site much lately. In fact, it's making me embarrassed to be consider myself a vampire at all.

I've often wondered if it would be possible or even likely that vampires could form triangle relationships such as:
1.  Sang feeds from Donor
2.  Donor spends time with PV replenisher for healing
3.  PV feeds from happy Sang
Round & round we go...?