<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>>
<Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community
<Merticus> Public Meeting – November 20, 2013
<Merticus> Discussion Agenda:
<Merticus> Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2013. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
<Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
<Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
<Merticus> II. Background & Introduction
<Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006.
<Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attain
<Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
<Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
<Merticus> For more information please visit our website at:
http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
<Merticus> III. Discussion
<Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present
<Merticus> members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
<Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions:
<Merticus> a. Examining The Prevailing Dogma Of The Vampire Community - A Three-Part Question: Has the vampire community become too rigidly dogmatic for dialogue? Various groups believe they each know 'the truth' or 'what real vampires are all about' and react to conflicting views with ridicule, sneering, dismissing contrary views, or instantly claiming that they are being criticized or even victimized.
<Merticus> If yes, why do you believe as a community we have become increasingly intolerant of diverse points of view? Is it possible to allow for less rigid dogma and discussions while remaining respectful of each other’s beliefs or opinions? <Abyah> Да, я лично столкнулась и продолжаю сталкиваться с категоричностью участников различных сообществ. Время идёт, мы меняемся, меняются реалии. То, что существует сейчас, может исчезнуть завтра или стать чем-то совершенно иным.
<Abyah> Природа вампира часто консервативна, как я заметила. У вампиров слишком много вопросов по отношению к своей природе. Когда они находят приемлемый ответ на один из них, то удовлетворённо принимают его и не особенно склонны рассматривать другие возможные ответы. Все мы очень разные. Если какая-то версия подходит одному, это не значит, что она подойдёт всем. "Сколько людей, столько и мнений".
<Abyah> Считаю, что нам следует быть гибче. Если факт нельзя однозначно опровергнуть, то он вполне может быть истиной. Никто не знает всего. Но мы все способны создать некую общую картину, которая способна многое объяснить.
<Belfazaar> There ARE groups within the vampire community/online vampire community that have become so rigidly set in their dialogue that they cannot vary to the slightest degree (I am NOT here to point fingers at specific groups and won’t do it) even when absolute proof is in their face (by absolute I do NOT mean empirical data but physical proof, as with when I am NOT feeding properly as a sanguine vampire)…
<Belfazaar> People are literally being beat over the head with this tack that “our way is the only way” and it is usually presented by those who view vampirism as a “spiritual” endeavor of some sort… It is increasingly becoming an issue by those who CREATE their own spirituality and toss vampirism into it…
<Belfazaar> Because of this, they perpetually point fingers at others and harshly criticize them for not falling into toe with others on some ethereal line that they, themselves created during the creation of their specific paradigm/religion/spirituality… This is the problem with “creationism”.
<Belfazaar> Even adapting predetermined mythos/legends/religious actions/magicks into your spiritual path, you risk upsetting people IN those religions, and yet these people continue to just willie nillie add what they want, when they want, where they want without thought of consequences of such actions; without even wondering why a process might even have an initiatory path to it… Instead it just gets dumped in and “preached as gospel”…
<Belfazaar> Currently, with the way things are going, I don’t see people as being more open to discussion without keeping their walls high, especially when it comes to spirituality and the creation of it. What I would like to see happen?
<Belfazaar> People understand that NOT everyone is going to see EVERY aspect of what you view as plausible, let alone, the “only” path. There are things in MY spiritual path that I don’t view as plausible for whatever reason, yet I still follow that path. Finding others that follow the path yet don’t quite do things the way I do them, I do NOT call them out as wrong… I think, feel and say something about how wonderful it is that Spirit has adapted to them.
<DarkFess> Никаких догм нет, но должно быть единое видение наших проблем. Основа - здравый смысл. Если кто то «летает в облаках» или «сочиняет свои миры», не вижу ничего плохого в том, чтобы «опустить его на Землю».
<DarkFess> Или пусть он это делает за пределами Сообщества... Иначе наш дом попросту превратится в цирк и болото. Здравый смысл не должен никогда уступать место толерантности.
<HorusSat> About real vampirism, at the moment, there are any “actual truth” or firm evidences, or even a proven theory on what and who we actually are. Not by chance we talk about SELF-IDENTIFIED Real Vampires, namely that are people themselves to identify them into Real Vampires.
<HorusSat> In lack of certain and concrete proofs, specially by the medical perspective, on what we actually are, the Italian RV Community and our Association consider it appropriate that no-one could have the rights to say that he knows the truth and that the information must be given complete, considering all the not-proven theories about real vampirism (even the most absurd), until there will be proven proofs that could be accepted and make the others not valid.
<OctarineValur> Part 1: I believe parts of the vampyre community have become rigid and dogmatic in the scope of their own dogma or views of what vampyrism or the vampyre community are or should be. In my view, this is tied to particular groups or individual factions.
<OctarineValur> Part 2: This may be partly due to charismatic or manipulative leaders who convince their following to see things the same way they do while rejecting or even expressing hostility towards dissenting view points. Part 3: Anything is possible.
<ScarletRavenwing> (1) I do feel that there is a growing intolerance in the community, of other opinions, suggestions, standards and actions. Is it too dogmatic, I don't feel that it is, it is simply that we need to find a peaceful means of open communication that does not ostracize each other or each others thoughts and feelings.
<ScarletRavenwing> Before there was such a large and multidimensional community, people could still "fight" amongst themselves but often it seemed they would agree to disagree and move on. Now with the community as an ever expanding, evolving and globally seen social structure, people have taken to "picking sides" instead of agreeing to disagree or finding common ground.
<ScarletRavenwing> (2) I feel that the reason for such intolerance and negativity is the mass grow without a solid infrastructure, as well as the shift from "underground" to public media. As any growing community feels growing pains, no matter how major, we have in some ways outgrown the skeleton of our community base.
<ScarletRavenwing> People have taken to forming factions, houses and covens that are based solely upon their belief and practice. Further putting a once secretive community into such daylight forms of media as news, television and internet programming has shone a light into a place so many have not spoken of outside their small faction.
<ScarletRavenwing> I do not feel that putting this community out into the media is wrong, I fear that programming such as news and television are looking to entertain rather than show honestly how this lifestyle and community exist. They are often in it more for the shock value than any actual form of teaching acceptance.
<ScarletRavenwing> Further the persons that are shown in the media aren't always the best to represent this community, thus causing even more confusion for those new to or outside of this community. Due to these mixed signals, the mass of falsehoods on the internet, and the lack of peaceable agreements is where I feel this emotional instability of a sense is happening in this community.
<ScarletRavenwing> (3) I believe there always is, where a true wish to connect as a community exists. The problem is that not all members of the vampire community are willing to work as a community. Common Unity, a place where we can meet on some simple base to strike conversation from, a place that connects all of us, this is what we need before we can join together and make a community whole again.
<ScarletRavenwing> I fear that with the upsurge in the numbers of community members as well as the incorrect imagery from various forms of media and factions make it difficult to try and strike a common ground.
<Spurn> Jeg mener ikke at vampyrsamfundet er for dogmatisk, men blot at diskussioner og samtaler om netop vampyrisme i alle sine facetter er dalende. Det er sandt at forskellige grupper synes at mene at de besidder den eneste sandhed om vampyrisme.
<Spurn> Hvad grunden til dette er, er et godt spørgsmål. Jeg mener dog ikke at hoveddelen af vampyrer ikke vil snakke om og vurdere forskellige gruppers synspunkter, men blot at de ikke bliver bragt for dagen, da grupperne, som mener at de har 'sandheden', ikke er til at diskutere med på et civiliseret niveau. Det må være muligt at diskutere andre gruppers synspunkter, uden at anfægte eller afskrive omtalte gruppers ideologier.
<Reija> Of course every group believes that they are "right". It’s much like religion, where only by attending Church A can you go to Heaven, everyone else is wrong.
<Vyrdolak> Maybe that's the problem with groups, per se.
<Heidica> I would say it depends on if a group etc actually has strong and agreed on believes or not. If a group, House etc. does not have that and instead is a gathered place for vampires with different believes it might not be as much quarreling either. I understand most groups or Houses has agreed on believes, but that doesn’t go for all.
<Merticus> People are often too afraid to speak up because someone will cry "attack" when someone is merely disagreeing with them.
<Heidica> Or they just don’t wish to spend their energy on the drama Merticus.
<Merticus> I'm not sure why we can't agree to disagree more without making it personal, vindictive, or worse...
<Heidica> Hear, hear.
<Vyrdolak> Likely, although it's hard to be sure why people won't talk when they won't speak up to explain.
<Isealdor> Because drama is more interesting to most people.
<Gabriel> A lot of vampires/ones in the community from what I've seen look for common threads, be that an identification or a definition of something in particular. I think the dialogue break downs may be commonly threaded with these. I think that groups or individuals can be dogmatic in their approach to the things around them to obtain their own belief without breaking down dialogue.
<Jeanette> I think group rivalry is not a problem of the vampire community... it is a universal human problem.
* Isealdor agrees with Jeanette
<Imon> I think it's more a problem with a few individuals who are like that rather than the community as a whole. I don't see any of that behaviour in the company I keep :-)
<Merticus> Yes, as a people we don't seem content unless we're engaged in some kind of conflict or struggle. It’s much easier to denigrate than to create something.
<Isealdor> Well... and that people let the actions of a few individuals cause issues for the community as a whole (or, rather, the more public forums).
<Imon> I'm actually seeing a lot of collaboration among groups now and people in the vampire community in general.
<Heidica> Agrees with it more being a few individuals.
<Merticus> Are we more intolerant of ideas as a "community" than we were 5 years ago? 10 years ago?
<Imon> I see more tolerance now than I've ever seen.
<Heidica> I also see more trying to cooperate these days.
<Heidica> I don’t think so Merticus.
<Merticus> Across the board do we respect one another less than before? And if so, if that just for online interactions or does it translate to people we've met in person as well?
<Gabriel> I personally see a lot of the community doing a circle. Things from years ago that we were taught kind of fading as we grew and then it becoming new again with other groups. However intolerance not so much more acceptance.
<Jeanette> The vampire community doesn't *become* intolerant... all these years (I'm active member since 2000) exists groups that fight each other... in the last years the community have a positive development in my eyes... because we have such projects like VVC.
<Heidica> I feel a lot more people have tried to gather and cooperate just the last year.
<Reija> I agree with what Gabriel mentioned. there's been a definite pendulum swing, and we're headed back to where we were 15 years ago with finite groups with finite views, rather than a broad spectrum we had a few years ago.
<Heidica> I felt it was a lot more arguing going on when I got in here about 3.5 years ago.
<Merticus> I'm quite pleased with what we've collectively accomplished over the past few years. I would contend we're far more organized and able to put people in touch with resources/information than we once were.
<Heidica> I am hoping that will continue.
<Reija> Yes, but in a way it's also divisive. A person says "I’m interested in/I feel this" and we point them to group XYZ which feels the same way, and they don't get to explore other viewpoints.
<Reija> Everyone gets neatly packaged up and filed away rather than exploring all their options.
<Merticus> Hopefully they'll be enough innovation and projects to keep people engaged enough and will drown out some of divisiveness and expand into new outlets of information.
<Merticus> I don't believe everyone should be placed into neat boxes within the vampire community... we're all unique (I would hope) and able to appreciate and encourage that diversity. But at the same time remain respectful of the little quirks and variations of how we interpret "vampirism".
<Isealdor> @Merticus: Really, I don't think there is that kind of respect, for the most part -- it's more people have gotten sick of arguing about it and so sectioned off with others who think/believe/feel more similarly to them, and primarily ignore (and randomly in their own circles bash) the others.
<Merticus> The social media networks are also enabling mechanisms for misinformation and reinforcing the mentality that whatever you wish to believe is acceptable. If you say you’re a demonic vampire unicorn who’s reincarnated from some ancient deity then no one should dare challenge the identity you’ve created for yourself.
<Heidica> There will always be nuances and so some diversity but it might be you are right in many times Reija.
<Imon> One thing is the swing in social media sites had a big impact on older groups.
<Heidica> Do you feel in a negative way?
<Jeanette> @Reija; This is better than someone searching for other people who feel like him and don't find anyone.
<Reija> That's true, Jeanette.
* Gabriel nods to Imon
<Imon> Yes, Dark Nations almost kicked the bucket until we opened up the Facebook site and now it's thriving beautifully.
<Imon> I've also decided to open a branch of Les Vampires on Facebook and I was NOT a Facebook fan in the beginning lol.
<Heidica> Nods. Good to hear things are going well with the Dark Nations :)
<Heidica> I have used Facebook a lot for my group and community, not always a good thing but mostly it has been and it’s easy to get in touch with others that way.
<Heidica> Also Skype has showed to be useful for us.
<Imon> MySpace has pretty much been deserted as a whole by everyone I know.
<Reija> Facebook is good for quick easy communication, but not good for public chats, and doesn't replace a website with a good fileserver.
<Imon> Nods to Skype.
<Jeanette> In Germany the most people don’t like Facebook Vampire groups... it’s very difficult to get in touch with others.
<Merticus> Do you believe rhetoric is more or less contentious within Facebook groups than just a year ago *OR* have people simply stopped responding/talking or segregated themselves into insular smaller groups to avoid receiving/seeing challenges to their viewpoints?
<Isealdor> The latter. Very much the latter.
<Reija> Facebook is definitely more insular. It’s easier to just not approve someone to join the group.
<Reija> Plus on Facebook you can check out what other groups the person is in, their friends, their photos, it's WAY easier to screen people.
<Gabriel> I don't think that just going to a smaller group is just about challenges to viewpoints.
<Merticus> What do you think the long term effects will be for the community of isolating or surrounding ourselves with people who don’t challenge our beliefs, ideas, or notions?
<Reija> I think we'll implode and set ourselves back by at least a decade.
<Imon> Who knows a year or two down the road, the favorite social media may change again.
<Imon> So I've just learned we have to be more flexible to change.
<Heidica> I believe it will be very bad long term effects from isolating etc.
<Heidica> I agree Reija.
<Merticus> I really hope we don't transition to an entirely new social media platform anytime soon... so much is lost in transition each time there is a great exodus.
<Reija> Merticus should start a VVC exchange student program, lol
<Isealdor> How would that work?
<Gabriel> Loss of data and archives is horrible in transitions.
<Heidica> I believe it is possible to allow for less rigid dogma/discussions while remaining respectful, yes.
<Reija> Do I think it's possible, yes. Do I think enough people will put forth the effort to make it happen? No.
<Heidica> Some are willing Reija, and if some are more might follow.
<Reija> *nod*
<Merticus> I believe the insulation is also leading to duplication of information/resources and leaving many caught in limbo between groups/websites and thus not finding donors or mentors because they don't know which way to turn.
<Reija> Quite possibly.
<Merticus> I've seen numerous responses to the Reformation Questionnaire that there aren't enough community resources and places to pool information. I'm left somewhat bewildered by where they are or aren't looking for help.
<Heidica> I agree, and am all up for contributing more to gather people.
<Reija> Because the websites went down when people moved to social media.
<Merticus> Many of the forums and websites are indeed gone now, but there are well over 100+ Facebook groups at the moment.
<Vyrdolak> Well, right, that is a factor -- websites have been superceded by Facebook.
<Reija> But Facebook is more chitchat and less actual information.
<Heidica> Nods
<Isealdor> 100+ Facebook groups... all of which are a pain in the ass to use for any sort of archive.
<Vyrdolak> The groups simply don't serve the same func.tion.
<Reija> Exactly!
<Isealdor> People can't go to them and read back through or search for anything effectively.
<Isealdor> I mean, they can read back through, but it's painful.
<Merticus> It’s not realistically possible to archive or group together important postings without creating documents, etc.
<Reija> Facebook isn't an archive.
<Vyrdolak> There's a big difference between an informational website and an interactive group.
<Gabriel> Wikivampedia
<Merticus> Would any of you posit that technology and the existence of social media itself is harming the vampire community (dialogue and rhetoric) more than we could ever do ourselves?
<Vyrdolak> But that leads to, is that what people want? Because they don't really come looking for information, but for people who agree with what they already think?
* Gabriel agrees with Vyrdolak
<Gabriel> Well put.
<Isealdor> Right... and there's certainly beneficial aspects to interactive groups... but having that interaction not archived effectively also means a lot gets lost.
<Jeanette> But are the groups active?
<Heidica> I have found the socializing to be good for many and more and more to ask for personal info/counseling on their vampirism. I believe both are good, both info pages and smaller groups where one can address others to ask for assistance on a more personal basis.
<Isealdor> Some groups are very active, others are dead, and others are active in bursts. Most aren’t active in the long term.
<Heidica> Nods Isealdor.
<Vyrdolak> Socializing is good, but having nothing else but that is superficial.
<Imon> If I'm talking to someone and I know there are two trains of thought on a topic, I usually say that.
<Imon> I may say one is more my opinion but I don't knock the other one down.
<Heidica> It takes at least one active and engaging person to do that. When that person keeps getting attacked eventually they will either give up or move their assistance to other places or smaller groups again.
<Jeanette> The German groups are not active, but every day are 50 members online on the vampyre website I administrate... I think it is an American problem? ^^
<Isealdor> I suppose Facebook threads at least do lend toward socializing that extends beyond the daily "Hi, how are you? What's the weather? I'm having steak for dinner" bs that chats tend toward
<Reija> I’ll clearly state that this is my opinion, and there are others.
<Imon> Nods
<Merticus> The latest trend seems to be blocking those who disagree with you completely on Facebook so their entire pages and posts aren't available to you - which creates even more issues when things come up in other groups/pages/discussions and people are clueless what you're referring to because some can view and some can't.
<Heidica> I agree Vyrdolak, it also has to be good information pages around. I get requests for doing classes very often and have occasionally done them on the subjects I know something about, but people also have to be responsible for own learning and development and not just rely on others to do it for them. It can be hard to find balances.
<Merticus> Forums in the United States have largely fallen silent... there are a few left but even those aren't active. Most of the connections to our websites I'm seeing are from mobile devices - upwards of 70%+ now.
<Vyrdolak> Which is even more superficial than chat.
<Reija> Everyone wants info in 140 characters or less.
<Merticus> There is a lot more "media" in general competing for our time throughout the day.
<Imon> As for being respectful in conversation, regardless of differences, for the most part I see that with both groups and individuals I'm around. I agree one or two people can make it difficult to post in some groups unless you have really tough skin, so I do post less in that type of group.
<Vyrdolak> And people don't want to *think* about things. All these 300-post comments threads are just 300 people popping off the cuff.
<Heidica> Yes, and complains if they don’t get our attention 24/7. As if one hasn’t any life outside the community at all :P
<Reija> It's all become much less personal. When I started out in the vampire community, you talked over the phone or in person. You had a difference of opinion, you hashed it out.
<Merticus> b. Realistic Expectations Of Attempting To Protect The Vulnerable - A Four-Part Question: For many years we have debated whether, and how, to protect new or vulnerable participants of the vampire community from leaders or groups that are perceived (by some) to be unethical, abusive, or disseminating misinformation.
<Merticus> Thus far, we have been unable to collectively agree on which leaders or groups are ‘bad’ and what to do about them. Are we realistically able to protect others from their own naiveté, wishful thinking, or ardent stupidity?
<Merticus> When does trying to 'police' such a diverse and unfocused grouping of participants as the vampire community simply create more divisions and negativity? Is there a more productive use of our time? If so, what is it and how should we best arrive there? <Abyah> Этот вопрос вытекает из первого. Несправедливостей я видела с лихвой. Достаточно непросто ответить на все вопросы новичков. Однако бывает, что и новичок неожиданно может подать блестящую идею. Слушать друг друга и прислушиваться друг к другу - разные вещи. Можно, конечно, создать что-то типа Верховного совета, который будет разбирать наиболее сложные споры.
<Abyah> Но с другой стороны - это как раз приведёт к лишнему формализму. Считаю, что каждый лидер обязан пресекать ссоры и несправедливости, он в ответе за взаимопонимание и мир в своём сообществе. Если же в его Доме творится хаос и беспорядок, то какой же он лидер?
<Abyah> Спорные вопросы лучше решать на местах, среди круга, члены которого знают друг друга и смогут понять ситуацию лучше, чем приглашённые "судьи" со стороны.
<Belfazaar> In all honesty, these people, places and organizations tend to be very seductive in nature. Knowing just the right things to say to spread doubt about others and making themselves seem like innocents in some plot against them.
<Belfazaar> In the long run, I think that we will just have to be available for any and all people who come to us, for whatever reasons, up to and including when they finally open their eyes and see these people/groups/sites for what they really are…
<Belfazaar> Policing/trying to rule the community is what split the community in the first place. As I said in previous writings, I visited the New York community in the 1990s and was treated like absolute dog shit because I wouldn’t bow down and kiss the rings of those who thought they ruled over us all, not understanding that I was a member of the community BEFORE the advent of the internet…
<Belfazaar> BEFORE people started claiming to be the father/mother of the community.
<DarkFess> Я считаю, что мы должны как то защищать себя от дезинформации и клеветы. Было бы весьма неплохо создать такую вот нашу «полицию».
<DarkFess> Но вопрос в другом, кто этим будет заниматься? У нас всегда много идей, а не поверку - попросту не хватает исполнителей... тех, кто бы хотел и делал что то. В основном все только болтают.
<HorusSat> Strict rules concerning what is allowed, and what is not, are required in the vampire community. I’m talking about regulations that must be shared, liked and respected by all the communities. For instance, the relationship between donor and vampire must be regulated with the bill of rights, that should be mandatory for all the communities as safeguard for all both sides (vampire and donor).
<HorusSat> Furthermore it must be regulated the respect between two or more groups which are on the national territory. Quarrels between groups are something that damage not only the involved groups but the entire national (or even international) community. We need more discipline in implementing the rules and regulations for the common good living.
<HorusSat> Such rules and regulations must be approved and endorsed by all the groups or communities belonging to the VVC. Nobody is forced to be part of the vampire community but those who decide to do so must abide by the rules and regulations.
<OctarineValur> I think that realistically, all we can really do is to provide as accurate or realistic information as we can and hope that common sense prevails, at least in the majority.
<OctarineValur> The "core documents" for example might be displayed across various sites in the online vampyre community alongside the same list of signatories in terms of groups or vampyre community bodies that agree with them, and perhaps there should also be a page warning against sites or groups providing misleading information or information which can endanger those looking for information about real vampyrism and the vampyre community.
<ScarletRavenwing> (1) A person cannot force someone to learn a lesson, they must learn it themselves. With that in mind I see nothing wrong in giving warnings. If a child is about to touch a flame is it not at the very least polite of us to warn it that it may get burned and hurt?
<ScarletRavenwing> Even if we do so, does that mean that this child will then never try and touch the flame? No. People learn from their actions or the actions of others, but if we never even offered help, warnings, or support then what kind of community are we?
<ScarletRavenwing> (2) Unfortunately setting any specifics as a community will rile up various groups. If we announce group A is a dangerous roleplay group, then that only will make group A more volatile and any groups that support it.
<ScarletRavenwing> It is perhaps best to place individual warnings, each persons opinions of what to be wary of, as opposed to setting a list of names out as "bad groups/people" Because we have such vastly different sub-communities setting an absolute right and wrong will not happen.
<ScarletRavenwing> However placing an individual opinions as a choice would mean more that this person feels this way, and not that the community at large feels this way. We already have too many groups claiming that they are speaking for the vampire community all at once.
<ScarletRavenwing> (3 & 4) If I may suggest, if this is such a concern to ask members of the VVC and/or upstanding representatives of the community to answer a survey or questions that would detail what are ups, downs, and concerns within and about the community and place it in a public setting.
<ScarletRavenwing> This way the topic is discussed and addressed but from various backgrounds, showing more of the variations of this community as well as perhaps similarities.
<Spurn> ærligt talt må jeg sige at vi ikke er i stand til at beskytte alle mod 'dårlige' grupper og forkert vejledning. Det betyder dog ikke at vi skal lade være med at forsøge, for hvis vi helt lader være med at forsøge, så ryger flere i 'fælden'.
<Spurn> Så længe at alle i samfundet ikke er med på ideen om en fælles police, så vil der altid opstå divisioner. Jeg mener at vi forsøger at bruge vores tid så fornuftigt som muligt, men desværre er det ikke alle der hopper i puljen. Flere skal deltage i at forbedre vores fælles samfund.
<Vyrdolak> I think it's worth looking at the current news about George Zimmerman, with respect to this question.
<Vyrdolak> He had a history of domestic violence, he was acquitted of murder, he split up with his wife who had supported him through his trial, and *immediately* he has a new girlfriend.
<Vyrdolak> Whose house he just trashed and who he pulled a shotgun on.
<Vyrdolak> Now presumably she wasn't living in a cave.
<Vyrdolak> So the question is -- does "warning" people about someone questionable even help?
<Reija> No, it makes people curious.
<Heidica> I do believe we need to warn community members when we are familiar with individuals or groups who has been involved with criminal or damaging activities. We have some responsibility I feel.
<Merticus> Yes, most of the time it just drives a person toward that individual even more to "see for themselves" or makes you out to be the "bad guy" for spreading "rumor" or "unsubstantiated allegations".
<Heidica> Will that depend on how the warning is being given?
<Vyrdolak> Right, and what about liability, Heidica? Can people sue you in Norway for slandering them? I know the laws are a bit different.
<Reija> Not really.
<Heidica> No, it’s hard to sue anyone for slandering in Norway.
<Reija> Here in the U.S. about all you can say is post the facts. "He is a registered sex offender", "He was convicted of this crime" and that's it.
<Vyrdolak> Trouble is, just about everyone here uses pseudonyms, many people more than one. To effectively keep track of them and "warn" others, we have to "dox" them -- reveal who they are.
<Reija> Yes.
<Merticus> There is also the other school of thought that individuals can do whatever they wish and their personal lives and misdeeds are off limits to the vampire community in all respects - regardless of what they have done or intend to do with said individuals/situation/etc.
<Heidica> Then at least we should post that I feel, if anyone is convicted.
<Vyrdolak> Convictions are public record, but lots of problems never get that far. And that still involves revealing people's real names, behind their vampire community names.
<Merticus> Regardless... even if convicted of crimes there are those who feel it's none of anyone's business in the vampire community. Even if involves associating with those offline or in some cases even with minors.
<Imon> Well I'm definitely not of that school of thought Merticus, nor is anyone I know.
<Jeanette> @Vyrdolak; Yes, we know is just America and the other part of the world ^^ :)
<Imon> Yes, I think people should be warned when there's a real danger from someone in the vampire community for criminal behaviour or those we see luring underage to be runaways or heaven forbid abducting them or anyone, even legal age.
<Heidica> Would you feel a person has given up their right to privacy with committing serious crimes?
<Imon> Yes Heidica, if indicted but not convicted, then at least follow the proceedings, if convicted, definitely.
<Vyrdolak> Here's another issue: What about vampire community members who are mandated reporters? That means, legally they have to report danger to a child, elderly person etc.
<Merticus> Those of us who operate offline groups have legal responsibilities to consider as well - for the protection of our members, their privacy, and any associations with criminality - as some hold security clearances and professions which are closely scrutinized.
<Heidica> Merticus, that is something that can be very tricky. Personally I feel a person has given up their right to privacy when they commit a serious crime like rape, violence and etc, and I will not defend any of my fellow vampires if they have.
<Merticus> I'm sure many of us have encountered individuals coming to us with "horror stories" and "I'm going to kill myself" etc... it’s sometimes difficult to sort through what is accurate, what is imagined, and what is said to only to capture our attention or keep us spinning in circles.
<Vyrdolak> That's another issue, too -- people who come to the vampire community pleading for help, talking about abuse from someone who isn't in the vampire community. It's very hard to sort out those stories, and you wonder what kind of mess you'd let yourself in for if you even emailed them.
<Vyrdolak> There are cases with outside documentation, but then we have cases where individuals and groups tell upsetting stories, but it's all "he said-they-said". People pick who to believe.
<Imon> And then again underage girls who run away from home to be with "their" vampire.
<Heidica> Nods Vyrdolak.
<Vyrdolak> Or someone we liked a lot suddenly is accused of serious stuff and it's pretty plausible.
<Imon> Right Vyrdolak, you can't go on hearsay alone.
<Heidica> Unfortunately it can be tricky to differ between the seriously ill and the drama feeders,
<Vyrdolak> But what do we do when that's all there is? And the accusations are really serious? Not, person broke rules or repeated secrets, but person raped a 14-year-old?
<Vyrdolak> What do we do if someone confessed they were making meth and selling it to teenagers?
<Heidica> And sometimes the drama feeders can be seriously ill as well. Which can be very hard to handle if its someone close to you who’s mental issues suddenly takes a turn for the worse. Then we should report it to the police.
<Heidica> I mean if someone tells me they sell drugs or raped someone.
<Merticus> It's rarely cut and dry and often law enforcement won't involve themselves because their ability to investigate claims (or situations that have happened in the past tense) are next to impossible (or not feasible time/budget-wise within their department).
<Merticus> Thus, individuals remain part of the community, change pseudonyms, reinvent themselves, and integrate back into their comfortable niches.
<Vyrdolak> The unresolved tension, which has been debated so many times in the vampire community, is between how far we police ourselves versus when and whether to involve authorities.
<Heidica> I say we should when it is serious crimes that can put our community members in danger.
<Vyrdolak> It used to be that in almost any subculture, you never involved authorities, and brought that kind of attention on the whole subculture -- everything was dealt with internally.
<Vyrdolak> But the vampire community doesn't want to/can't do that effectively, or agree on how to do it.
<Imon> Then it's probably someone I would avoid if they haven't been arrested but there is a good probability it's true. And if they were in my physical area, I'd probably give folks a heads-up.
<Merticus> Some would contend the vampire community has no business ever policing ourselves and that we should feel "safe and secure" in whatever we do, suggest, or advocate within the confines of the vampire community itself. Furthermore, that 'political correctness' and any ethical guidelines are restrictive to personal freedoms and hamper the dialogue of the community - the feeling of family and being able to openly share.
<Heidica> Then each have a personal responsibility and/or choice. Again, if one chooses to do it I believe more will follow and I have no problems reporting a fellow vampire to the police if I learn they provable has raped someone or other serious criminal activities.
<Vyrdolak> But how does anyone feel safe and able to share in an environment with no ethics and no standards of behavior?
<Merticus> I have often wondered that myself for those who make such arguments. I suppose some aren’t concerned because they consider themselves the “alpha predator on the block”.
<Vyrdolak> Way back in the early days, that's how the Pagan community thought. Then we got our noses rubbed in it by some very ugly incidents.
<Merticus> As will (and have) undoubtedly happened within the vampire community.
<Heidica> I think they won’t, and so we have to have some agreed on rules. *ducks down as she knows that is a tricky one* :)
<Vyrdolak> It's very naive (unfortunately).
<Reija> Rules only work when people agree to follow them.
<Imon> I personally don't believe in the whole vampire community judicial court thing and most people I associate with don't, but rather let the law handle the legal/illegal aspects. Of course if someone was an eye witness of a crime, they should come forward to the authorities. But the local community and online vampire community can certainly ostracize someone who has a really bad reputation and it seems to work.
<Imon> These people are usually repeat troublemakers, it doesn't just come out of the blue.
<Vyrdolak> And there are those who will be attracted to situations like that precisely so they can take advantage of them -- which I think we've seen happen here in the vampire community a number of times.
<Heidica> That is true, and it does affect people when things are posted about in Vampire Community News (VCN).
<Reija> Back in the old days, like 10-15 years ago, they used to have "hearings" and "trials" and kick people out of the community. It was all just a drama show. They logged off, changed their nick, got a new ISP, and were back in a week.
<Merticus> Any "judicial courts" or other similar groups in the vampire community are at best a ridiculous notion because there is no legal standing to conduct such actions.
<Reija> Exactly. They were like watching TMZ.
<Heidica> We can at least agree on the report to police if provable serious crimes.
<Imon> Right and some of the suggestions downright border on being a vigilante or worse.
<Merticus> The majority of us are not children in our parent’s basements and this is not a roleplay game, we have our own children, professional and employment considerations, custody issues, and other legal ramifications to consider without playing "vampire vigilante".
<Imon> Exactly.
<Reija> ^^
<Imon> Those type of people seem to feel the need to run their mouths about it and take pictures and post them with their guns and swords.
<Vyrdolak> Right. There's a certain about of denial about just how much most people base their idea of the vampire community on fiction and games -- the whole idea that we're an underground society and should have "enforcers" and courts and whatnot.
<Imon> Look how many "regular" people who ended up killing someone did the same thing and it came out in their trials.
<Heidica> Nods
<Merticus> “They” are watching... they have been for years now. Just like they will be reading this transcript days, months, or years from now. So plastering your social media profile with such is a very poor choice and ultimately may bite all of us should you find yourself arrested or linked to a serious crime.
<Imon> Right and as you know data forensic science is very effective.
<Heidica> Just want to say that trying to be a good example personally always is a productive use of time.
<Vyrdolak> I agree, Heidica!
<AcrophobicPixie> In my opinion and experience, no matter how much we may try to protect people from their own stupidity, they'll still do it. I mean, just look at the U.S. We reelected George Bush Jr. Not really the best thing, but what can we do. Mankind is inherently dumb and naive. And anything we do to try to get things on what we may perceive as the right track more times than not, makes them throw up defensive walls and go "I'm not dumb! Don't call that!”
<Imon> Anyway as far as doing preventative protection of the new and vulnerable, I just try to be friend and advisor. Not every person may listen but you can try. Locally as far as groups they already have a good handle on that here.
<Heidica> Has to start with oneself, always. Thank you and that’s my activist side lol ;)
<Imon> I agree Heidica.
<Imon> People in the community are very safety conscious both in NOLA and Houston that I've experienced.
<AcrophobicPixie> Thank goodness for that. I mean, safety is my main priority.
<Imon> Women get walked to their car, hotel etc. at night or people go in pairs or groups.
<Imon> Everyone was worried about me driving to NOLA 6 hours by myself but I told them I was traveling during the day and on a major freeway. I had hoped some of the Houston folks could join and carpool with me but no one could make it. But often they do carpool to events local or out of town for both economy and safety.
<Merticus> Nod Imon, that is the ideal community - one that looks out for one another, can trust one another to have each other's backs when we need help, and to be mindful when there is danger from within and without the circles we float around.
<Heidica> I see that happen, and hopefully will be more and more of it eventually that we have each others backs.
<Heidica> But then I always have hopes ;)
<Merticus> One more thing I'd like to say... some people assume ‘I’m’ often upset over certain behaviors or actions, etc. when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm merely disappointed in the way one has chosen to express or execute said action without taking into consideration those they are influencing or absent of safety, support, and other mechanisms to mitigate situations should they not turn out like they have planned/intended.
<Merticus> Education, not blind restriction, is crucial for the benefit of everyone.
<Merticus> At least for those who are able to discern the difference without inflecting their own biases or knee-jerk reaction to cry "authoritarian foul".
<Vyrdolak> People project on you, Merticus.
<AcrophobicPixie> Yeah, despite your wishes to the contrary, there are some people in the community who equate you to the vampire community equivalent to the Great and Powerful Oz.
<Merticus> I'm just as deviant as most anyone else, you just have to find me in the right situation and company.
<Heidica> :)
<Merticus> I really hope over the next couple of years the offline communities will strengthen and grow. I have great expectations for places such as New Orleans and Austin & Houston (Texas), and even lesser known areas like Oklahoma.
<Gabriel> <Merticus> I'm just as deviant as most anyone else, you just have to find me in the right situation and company.
<Gabriel> I’ll vouch for that :)
<Imon> Nods it's so expensive now to travel very far, I'm certainly glad to have found locals who had previously been hiding in the woodworks lol.
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